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Film & TV Moderators: ghostfreak
film: freddy vs. jason
- Thread starter whited19
- Start date
ralph_monsters
Bluelighter
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- Jul 18, 2002
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Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art.
-A. Warhol
-A. Warhol
DigitalDuality
Bluelighter
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- 21,112
I'm normally against the disposable crap that serves no real purpose.. the unenlightened, commercial, impressionable to gain sales for the masses, stereotypical, mindless uncreative bullshit
Which Freddy vs Jason is...If something to me is going to be entertaining for the sake of entertainment, instead of emotion, aesthetics, enlightenment, intellectual stimulation, etc... I normally hate it unless its has some kind of shock value to it.
But all in all, i still loved this film. I grew up dreaming of these 2 duking it out, and i finally got to see it. They cashed in, i got entertained, i paid my $8.
But all in all, i have a respect for all this disposable crap, all this useless bullshit when it comes to hollywood blockbusters and MTV TRL countdowns... It makes the shit that i really like seem more important, seem more rare, and that much more special b/c they're not some money hungry sellouts who alienate their fanbases for the sake of a dollar.
Which Freddy vs Jason is...If something to me is going to be entertaining for the sake of entertainment, instead of emotion, aesthetics, enlightenment, intellectual stimulation, etc... I normally hate it unless its has some kind of shock value to it.
But all in all, i still loved this film. I grew up dreaming of these 2 duking it out, and i finally got to see it. They cashed in, i got entertained, i paid my $8.
But all in all, i have a respect for all this disposable crap, all this useless bullshit when it comes to hollywood blockbusters and MTV TRL countdowns... It makes the shit that i really like seem more important, seem more rare, and that much more special b/c they're not some money hungry sellouts who alienate their fanbases for the sake of a dollar.
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2002
- Messages
- 66,995
^ that's a good way of looking at things. also, i believe that there's a degree of subsidy built into the system. surely a lot of people who make millions through 'bad art' then funnel that money into 'good art' (for want of better terms)?
if it wasn't for the hollywood gravy train, is it possible much of the sundance stuff would not get made (or it would get made but never traditionally distributed)?
what do you think?
alasdair
if it wasn't for the hollywood gravy train, is it possible much of the sundance stuff would not get made (or it would get made but never traditionally distributed)?
what do you think?
alasdair
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2002
- Messages
- 66,995
also, how culpable are we as consumers?
i take the big picture view - it's all art because art is defined by the individual. i don't have a problem with somebody thinking 'freddy vs jason' is the worst crap to ever hit the screen.
i do get annoyed with somebody telling others that they're 'wrong' for enjoying it. that annoyance is massively compounded if the latter have seen the art and the former have not and, therefore, their opinion is based on assumption.
what do you think?
alasdair
i take the big picture view - it's all art because art is defined by the individual. i don't have a problem with somebody thinking 'freddy vs jason' is the worst crap to ever hit the screen.
i do get annoyed with somebody telling others that they're 'wrong' for enjoying it. that annoyance is massively compounded if the latter have seen the art and the former have not and, therefore, their opinion is based on assumption.
what do you think?
alasdair
DigitalDuality
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2002
- Messages
- 21,112
i'm pretty much with you all the way on this.. and its not just freddy vs jason. Its the super hero movies, its the Britneys and Xtina's, its the one group explodes and the record company puts pressure on them to manipulate their sound to appeal to focus groups.
Do i think britney, freddy vs jason, Xtina, original muscians that turn sellout, sequels to movies that are "sellout" to the original, etc.. is art???? Yes... unfortunately i do. Even if its a financial backed corporate pushed construct, it is still art, and people have every right to appreciate it. I normally define that in a term of lower asethetics, intelligence, etc.. B/c most of the time its neatly packaged, easily accesible (the message, the meaning of it), and designed for the short attention span.
I normally don't appreciate this kind of art...the disposable pushed for the masses to turn a cool mil in profit. But every once in a while i do tend to like it. Whether its some catchy song i might hear and take a small liking to, or a movie such as this that i enjoyed. I don't think anyone is wrong for liking something, i don't think they are wrong for considering it art.
But if you want to argue what is better Freddy vs Jason or say Pi, Amelie, Waking Life. If you want to argue what i think is better Britney or Radiohead, Xtina or Cradle of Filth, Ja Rule or Talib Kweli. Well then we might have an arguement. And its not so much as one is better than the other either, its what i think deserves more respect and attention due to the deepness, emotion, skill, or where that burning passion to create originated from...from your heart? or your pocket?
But like i said, i enjoy my music, my films, my poetry, my paintings, that i take a great liking to... to remain in the minority. Lets Britney and Freddy have the limelight. I don't want my favorite artists corrupted by corporate pressure to produce in x amount of time to produce y amount of attention.
A good example of all of this... Lets take a looksy.. Movie-wise: Batman 1 vs Batman n' Robin. Batman 1..very artistic, true to the comic, a very nice and relatable feel to it... Batman and robin... i don't think any apply. It was a money maker, that is all. If you enjoyed it fine.. i didn't. Same thing with music. Limp Bizkit's Three Dollar Bill Y'all. No it wasn't pioneering..rock and rap had been fused before... but in that way? Harder metal with rap.. no not really..and definately not for a whole album. Then came the hollywood pressure, the cameras and interviews fans and groupies to build the ego, the record company to push for a product to out do the last in record sales..and DO IT QUICK!! and of course Fred Durst turned into Vanilla Ice Part Deux. So as far as i'm concerned...the shit that i like can stay unnoticable enough to be what i would call "pure" from greed and hollywood... but popular enough where they get a good amount of recognition and enough to make a living. If you have a Bentley or two.. you best believe 9 times out of 10.. i will download your shit off the net if i happen to like it.
This doesn't mean i don't like pop shit. I do like freddy as said b4. I liked Nsync's "Pop".. i grew up loving Michael Jackson..and for some reason i still do. I think Britney and Christina have put out some cool music videoes and songs. "Cool" but not "great".. I like alot of the songs off of Timberlake's solo debut... so what? I still listen to my underground hip hop, punk, metal, electronica, etc.. I still like my foriegn films, i still watch my cult movies. Probably more often than i give attention to the sellout shit.
I also like the ability to discover a movie no one has seen, a band no one has heard, a poet/author no one has read and share this with others. If i want the disposable crap i'll turn on the radio or tv.
I equate "selling out" as allowing popularity and money to affect, motivate, and be the driving force in your art. Just to gain mass appeal and a surplus of an excessive income and egomaniacal attention. Being entertaining doesn't always equate to "sellout"..even if the sole purpose is to mindlessly entertain you.
Freddy vs Jason.. yeah.. The whole series is entertaining art. No real message what so ever..just sit back and enjoy. But yeah.. after the 2nd movie in each series, it became a "sellout" issue.
I just hate when people mix up the two. Just because what is entertaining has a higher percentage rate of being dually "sellout" doesn't make it an in-stone rule.
And finally...
I think alot of "good art" wouldn't see the light of day if it wasn't for the popularity of "bad art". You're right on with Sundance, or how about the name dropping Coldplay recieves by the likes of Justin Timberlake, Beyonce, etc.. over the years. Same goes for Flaming Lips. Look at rappers, one goes pop, makes millions... starts his own label.. goes scouring the streets for new talent or brings up boys/girls he used to rap with back in the day and he knows they're incredible. Yeah for the most part mainstream rap is sellout crap or becomes as such.
In all honesty.. its so intermingled, i could probably go on for hours.
Do i think britney, freddy vs jason, Xtina, original muscians that turn sellout, sequels to movies that are "sellout" to the original, etc.. is art???? Yes... unfortunately i do. Even if its a financial backed corporate pushed construct, it is still art, and people have every right to appreciate it. I normally define that in a term of lower asethetics, intelligence, etc.. B/c most of the time its neatly packaged, easily accesible (the message, the meaning of it), and designed for the short attention span.
I normally don't appreciate this kind of art...the disposable pushed for the masses to turn a cool mil in profit. But every once in a while i do tend to like it. Whether its some catchy song i might hear and take a small liking to, or a movie such as this that i enjoyed. I don't think anyone is wrong for liking something, i don't think they are wrong for considering it art.
But if you want to argue what is better Freddy vs Jason or say Pi, Amelie, Waking Life. If you want to argue what i think is better Britney or Radiohead, Xtina or Cradle of Filth, Ja Rule or Talib Kweli. Well then we might have an arguement. And its not so much as one is better than the other either, its what i think deserves more respect and attention due to the deepness, emotion, skill, or where that burning passion to create originated from...from your heart? or your pocket?
But like i said, i enjoy my music, my films, my poetry, my paintings, that i take a great liking to... to remain in the minority. Lets Britney and Freddy have the limelight. I don't want my favorite artists corrupted by corporate pressure to produce in x amount of time to produce y amount of attention.
A good example of all of this... Lets take a looksy.. Movie-wise: Batman 1 vs Batman n' Robin. Batman 1..very artistic, true to the comic, a very nice and relatable feel to it... Batman and robin... i don't think any apply. It was a money maker, that is all. If you enjoyed it fine.. i didn't. Same thing with music. Limp Bizkit's Three Dollar Bill Y'all. No it wasn't pioneering..rock and rap had been fused before... but in that way? Harder metal with rap.. no not really..and definately not for a whole album. Then came the hollywood pressure, the cameras and interviews fans and groupies to build the ego, the record company to push for a product to out do the last in record sales..and DO IT QUICK!! and of course Fred Durst turned into Vanilla Ice Part Deux. So as far as i'm concerned...the shit that i like can stay unnoticable enough to be what i would call "pure" from greed and hollywood... but popular enough where they get a good amount of recognition and enough to make a living. If you have a Bentley or two.. you best believe 9 times out of 10.. i will download your shit off the net if i happen to like it.
This doesn't mean i don't like pop shit. I do like freddy as said b4. I liked Nsync's "Pop".. i grew up loving Michael Jackson..and for some reason i still do. I think Britney and Christina have put out some cool music videoes and songs. "Cool" but not "great".. I like alot of the songs off of Timberlake's solo debut... so what? I still listen to my underground hip hop, punk, metal, electronica, etc.. I still like my foriegn films, i still watch my cult movies. Probably more often than i give attention to the sellout shit.
I also like the ability to discover a movie no one has seen, a band no one has heard, a poet/author no one has read and share this with others. If i want the disposable crap i'll turn on the radio or tv.
I equate "selling out" as allowing popularity and money to affect, motivate, and be the driving force in your art. Just to gain mass appeal and a surplus of an excessive income and egomaniacal attention. Being entertaining doesn't always equate to "sellout"..even if the sole purpose is to mindlessly entertain you.
Freddy vs Jason.. yeah.. The whole series is entertaining art. No real message what so ever..just sit back and enjoy. But yeah.. after the 2nd movie in each series, it became a "sellout" issue.
I just hate when people mix up the two. Just because what is entertaining has a higher percentage rate of being dually "sellout" doesn't make it an in-stone rule.
And finally...
I think alot of "good art" wouldn't see the light of day if it wasn't for the popularity of "bad art". You're right on with Sundance, or how about the name dropping Coldplay recieves by the likes of Justin Timberlake, Beyonce, etc.. over the years. Same goes for Flaming Lips. Look at rappers, one goes pop, makes millions... starts his own label.. goes scouring the streets for new talent or brings up boys/girls he used to rap with back in the day and he knows they're incredible. Yeah for the most part mainstream rap is sellout crap or becomes as such.
In all honesty.. its so intermingled, i could probably go on for hours.
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