Miscellaneous Trying to make sense of my 2nd Mushroom Trip - hints for readings?

[alexcycling]

Hi all,
I suffered from post vaccine condition with insomnia and fatigue and microdosing LSD helped me out (this is a topic for another thread). Since ~1 year I microdose 10µg 1D-LSD (corresponding to ~8µg LSD-25) and f4eel well.
Tried to leave it out and/or replace it by home grown golden teachers (psilocybin cubensis), but the LSD benefits me more (I read much research articles about it, it might have to do with the circumstance that LSD also acts via dopaminergic receptors).

Preparation
Obviously I also read and got interested in full dose experiences.
Due to the stories about Mushrooms having a 'teaching entity' and that I can grow them myself, I decided to do some well prepared experiments based on golden teachers. I read Grofs Topography of the Unconscious, Fadimans Psychedelics Explorer Guide, many research articles etc.
I practiced some guided 1h holotropic breathwork (with holds) to see if some unresolved emotional stuff would show up, which was not the case. I also did some low dose tests to see how it feels.

1st trip
Following Imperial College's depression study, I then decided to do a fist 'lower' normal dose with 2g (they did 1.5 and 2.5g) dried GT mid december, in silent darkness, sitted by my wife which I fully trust.
It was interesting, and cycling about my quite strong idea about what should happen (a typical personal characteristic; i have a plan and dislike if it does not go the way I thought it should). Also some other topics which I frequently think about showed up. I had some interesting insights and learned that topics in trips can not be fully 'squeezed out' in the first go (as my busy mind normally would to; re-think, re-think, re-think), but that you get dragged onward by the flow. The topics re-appear several times, every time providing a deeper insight. So relax, let go, it will show up again...
So some interesting insight to integrate afterwards.

2nd trip
Tempted by Terence McKennas 5 dried gram stories, my goal is to go for it. But I'm aware that I should not do it hastily. As a surfer I know that you don't start in 5m waves. Respect for what is going on is required.
Therefore I decided to go for 3g next (just 2 days ago, so after ~3 month after the first trip).
I had watched the mini docu about Ram Dass (goig home) and his comment about that psychedelics might bring you in the 'room' where Buddha and Jesus exist, but only for some minutes. So he seemed to believe that spiritual practice might possibly provide more persistent effects.
I also read Leary, Metzner and Ram Dass's psychedelic experience manual (based on the book of the death). As I practice some mindlfulness techniques and meditation every now and then since years, I prepared by a week with longer meditations every day, listening to some meditative background music (which i usually don't do) to also use it for the 1st hour after intake to give the trip some 'direction'.

This one was different; I was meditating, coming back to my breath, leaving my ego behind, recognizing the visuals etc. as generated by my consciousness, which I should not stick to. However, I could not generate that loving awareness; it was more like an emotionless observing (btw. sorry for my bad english, not a native speaker).
I had the clear impression that I could go back and forth along my ego's history, see my birth etc., but that it is irrelevant, so I didn't.
The whole trip was chaotic visuals/illusions which I did not stick to, but almost nothing else. Not a single aspect of what Leary describes (I was skeptical about their manual either way, because being one with the light first, and then falling out of it sooner or later seems to not match with what many people say: first there are the visuals...)
The only thing I had was the impression of being 'It' which generates this universe (and many others) out of the room of chaos and tumbling opportunities. That the universe my ego lives in is one with comforting consistency, because it is based on clear rules.
All this was not associated with with any positive feelings. Also no anxiety. But by the sobering feeling of there's only Me as 'it' (not alex's ego) alone out there. No consolation, no higher entity etc.
Also the insight that following some spiritual leader (instead of tripping) won't do, as me-'It' made everything, also them and that it would be absurd to follow them to recognize myself...

This leaves me with some questions. I know, things can not be answered definitely, but some hints could help me working with what I experienced and integrating it.

1. Could it be that I was stuck in between with 3g and that I could come beyond the chaotic visuals with higher dosage? Terence said so. To me, the visuals have been like de-saturated (with 2g and also with 3g). Ok, there are colors, but they are not super bright. So a part in me thinks: 2g -> 3g increased the chaos. Going for 5g will lead to more of it. Another part thinks: take 5g, go beyond the visulas. Any experiences / hints in this regard?
2. No feelings of love, being one etc. This is a usual issue I have in normal life also. Only every now and then it shows through. It got much better with micro dosing. I can not understand how everybody says the trip has been so intense and live changing. Ok, I suffer from migraine once a year and already knew that reality is an illusion and that it can break away within a second. I asked my self: if i meditate and don't stick to anything, everything is random / irrelevant. But what remains? I could not find loving awareness; behind all the illusions there's nothing. Are there any good readings regarding these question?
3. When practicing holotropic breathwork, I can feel the loving awareness. However I can not hold / recreate these feelings a few hours later. I was thinking that tripping might lead my brain out of the de-emotionalized lock-up. Are there experiences with doing e.g. a mild holotropic breathing for the 1st hour after intake, to generate these feelings and possibly steer e the setting for the trip?
4. An interpretation could also be that although I believed that I left my ego behind, and that there showed no Grof's coex system, the feeling of being 'It' in chaos, alone, generating this universe of consistency, could exactly be one of my coex systems? However thinking about it as hypothesis I can not identify any resonance in me; i have no ideas what do do about it or how to work with it. Any hints in this regard?
5. Leary writes that experienced trippers could/should use less (his table states 40-60 mg Psilocybin for new users - possibly to break-up their mind, however a quite large dose with respect to what is recommended nowadays; 20-30 mg for experienced users). So an alternative to 5g could be to go with a lower dose to not get overwhelmed by visuals and concentrate on meditation. Any experiences in this regard?
6. Last but not least: I go for mushrooms for the above mentioned reasons (teaching entity, sustainable supply). Should I, based on my microdosing experiments, go for LSD?

Thanks for bearing with me; any hints highly appreciated
Alex

P.S: please let me know If this thread should have been elsewhere, I'm unsure where it fits best.

 

[thecomfortsofmadness]

IMO maybe the microdosing is affecting in some way the effects when going for a normal dose. Never done microdosing, so not sure about this...

Have some rest and go for lsd expierence, if you feel like it. Remember that shrooms are not that "controllable" and they take you where they want, so not having the trip you want is usually normal.

Good luck!

 

[Snafu in the Void]

The medicine takes you wherever it wants to go. You can't control it, even with unlimited preparation. The more you try to control it, the more it will kick back.

You can't really recreate a specific state/emotion/enlightenment from a past trip no matter how much you try. It's different every time. I've encountered recurring visuals/hallucinations before, but other than that its always different and surprising.

Mushrooms in particular are very unpredictable.

"Buy the ticket, take the ride." - H.S.T.

I highly suggest using a macro dose of LSD if you've never tried it. Contrary to popular opinion, it is much more forgiving and easier to have positive experiences compared to mushrooms.

I have learned more from LSD than mushrooms, although admittedly that might just be bias.

also, as suggested, microdosing increases tolerance, especially if you microdose for long periods. That may explain some of the difference in the trips.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I had watched the mini docu about Ram Dass (goig home) and his comment about that psychedelics might bring you in the 'room' where Buddha and Jesus exist, but only for some minutes. So he seemed to believe that spiritual practice might possibly provide more persistent effects.

Also wanted to say that these types of mystical experiences are somewhat uncommon. I think they can only be somewhat reliably produced by masters of meditation (such as Ram Dass).

I have used psychedelics 150+ times in my life, with the majority of those being high doses or heroic doses. I'd guess that only around 10-20% of the time have I ever had mystical experiences, quasi-religious experiences, or enlightenment. The one exception to that rule would be high dose DMT, which tends to provide it almost every time at higher doses.

It's special and doesn't always occur.

Overall, I think its best to enjoy psychedelics without any sort of expectation for any certain experience. It's part of the magic in that you don't really know what will happen, or what teachings will be bestowed.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

I would avoid silent darkness, terrence mckennas advice is a great way to have a horrible experince.

No need to be taking 5g dried of shrooms.

Mushrooms can be very unforgiving, and are not controllable.

They simply take you wherever.

Only had ego death once on shrooms out of 60+ experinces on them. Acid on the other hand if i take 300 ug + my ego will fully dissolve, but this dosage aint for new comers.

Not every trip is going to be loving awareness.

No book will reveal the truth, they simply put expectations on the experince.

By the time i had read any book on psychedelics i had already had over 40 acid trips lol. I figured out most stuff by simply just taking the drug and tripping

I learnt the hard way about set & setting through my bad settings and horrible experinces in my younger years.

if you truly want some mystical experince, take a strong dose of LSD and put on this type of music





and this holy fuck this will send you to another realm




P.S my most personal growth trips were the ones i came out of saying holy fuck i will never do this again that was to much, to see, to feel. Not really blissful but pretty much humbling by the hand of god

 

[alexcycling]

Hi you three,
thank you for your answers and sorry for the late response.
Regarding the difference between mushrooms and LSD, as I stated, I also feel it with micro/mini dose, so I will give LSD a try.

With respect to 'holy fuck', I see. I felt the same the second time, now over the last week 'integrating' what I experienced, and I have the impression that this kind of trip and the related upset and integration will allow me to evolve much more than just a feel-good experience.
I started reading (besides the work of Grof) "Psychedelic integration" by Marc B. Aixala. And continued my meditative practice.

Interestingly, the adverse effect of meditating with high dose of psychedelics, as well as the lower abdomen effects which i feel appear in "REFLECTIONS ON LSD, ZEN MEDITATION AND SATORI. Ray JORDAN, Jr."

Regarding the build-up of tolerance from microdosing, my literature research made me think different, but I might be wrong. If you have any references I'd be grateful. I had been microdosing the "3 days a week" schedule for 8 months before the 1st trip and continued for 2 more before the second (10 in total).

"Without any sort of expectation", yes, this is what I try and it seems I'm like a pendulum overshooting in the one and other direction; hope the friction will bring me to the center spot ;-)
What I can tell from this very limited experiences is, that meditative practice might help (when used less strictly) when facing intense 'situations', as Leary wrote. That said I'm well aware that the substances have the power to wipe away anything at any time and replace it by horror (I guess you can not trick your consciousness by seemingly coolness).

So again, thanks for you hints and food for thought!
Alex

 

[alexcycling]

Hi all,
I intensified my 'inner work' with frequent meditation and awareness practice (partly influenced by some of the techniques Ram Dass speaks about). I decided to give the low dose LSD as discussed in the paper cited above a try on last Friday.
I took 60µg 1T (about 50 mg LSD-25) and did some meditation until the onset, but not beyond.
I did so, because my conclusion was: meditating with effort to not cling might be a practice not helpful on trips (as discussed in the paper; I guess the effort is also a beginners mistake); it might be better to be more focused on awareness ('only' preventing to get fully absorbed by single aspects).
I had no visuals with eyes open, but in silent darkness when floating between a kind of wake/sleep state (as I know it from my mushroom trips). It was quite interesting regarding inner work and insight. I will process what I 'learned' and then decide how to go on.

One question puzzles me:
Are the visuals on higher doses just getting stronger or is there some 'in between' where the visuals dominate? There is a saying of McKenna that people are to much stuck with visuals on 'to low doses'. Or is it more like visuals increasing in strength, but something else occurs on higher doses in addition? I'm asking because I wonder if I sould go beyond the 3g mushrooms, possibly in an equivalent amount of LSD...

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Hi all,
I intensified my 'inner work' with frequent meditation and awareness practice (partly influenced by some of the techniques Ram Dass speaks about). I decided to give the low dose LSD as discussed in the paper cited above a try on last Friday.
I took 60µg 1T (about 50 mg LSD-25) and did some meditation until the onset, but not beyond.
I did so, because my conclusion was: meditating with effort to not cling might be a practice not helpful on trips (as discussed in the paper; I guess the effort is also a beginners mistake); it might be better to be more focused on awareness ('only' preventing to get fully absorbed by single aspects).
I had no visuals with eyes open, but in silent darkness when floating between a kind of wake/sleep state (as I know it from my mushroom trips). It was quite interesting regarding inner work and insight. I will process what I 'learned' and then decide how to go on.

One question puzzles me:
Are the visuals on higher doses just getting stronger or is there some 'in between' where the visuals dominate? There is a saying of McKenna that people are to much stuck with visuals on 'to low doses'. Or is it more like visuals increasing in strength, but something else occurs on higher doses in addition? I'm asking because I wonder if I sould go beyond the 3g mushrooms, possibly in an equivalent amount of LSD...

try 150 ug or 200 ug of LSD.

This will be strong open and closed eye visuals. The visuals are part of the experince, but dont focus on them just let them come and go as the observer. go within, let the trip unfold without resistance. Your headspace will be greatly affected. As the dose gets higher the visuals get more and more stronger alongside all other effects. but id recommend 150 ug of LSD and see how that affects you. About one and a half tabs

 

[pupnik]

My approach that is based upon a model of mind that I have developed incorporating findings from experiments in neuroscience but not in keeping with the current major theories of mind which I think are badly flawed, as none of them begin with the approach that reflects upon the basics of
memory formation, and perceptive reflexes when faced with something familiar

My focus is exactly that and if you click my sig below you will get a JavaScript demonstration showing how memories can be made continuously every 1/10th of a second, and how perceptions are reflexes of brain tissue reactivating a majority of previously associated cortical neurons every tenth of a second (more or less) while awake or dreaming but not in dreamless sleep.

Since the process of memory formation and of perception underlie all of consciousness which is a process of navigation towards and away from what is familiar that is where I begin my analysis.

Memory formation and perceptive reflexes require at least 2 pulses (feedback) between thalamus and cerebral cortex, and with 3 pulses we get the added link to what is just fading - facilitating recall of what happened after what, or what happened before what. I am keeping it simple there is much more happening but the basics of memory formation and associative perceptive reflex is what makes up most of the experience we have in life.

When stoned, especially on serotonergic and cannabinoids, neurons in thalamus and cortex are easier to activate, so the feedback between them is extended: signals from half a second to 3 seconds ago seem to be current and are overlapping with signals that are just arising from sensation and memory. This leads to trails, enriched colors, more resonant sounds, and to perceptions that concurrently collide and form a unity even if they are logically oppositional by normal logic.

So far so good, however, if I am allowed to say so, the information in psychology, and neuroscience that is not basic reflex related or basic associative thought related is completely wrong.

Even the most recent views of Global Workspace (The GNW hypothesis emphasizes the role of long-range loops between cortical areas) are wrong headed - the wiring exists but it does not do what they say. While Daniel Hebb correctly guessed that what fires together wires together in the 1950's, he was wrong to imagine that repetition is what makes the wired link stronger, because he failed to realize that the context is always changing, so what really becomes stronger by repetition is actually memory access, (not the wiring together of ideas) due to more contexts being good triggers for the memory reflex....

Anyhew, it is not just drugs that produce the extended feedback resonance experienced on psychedelics, but emotions do it as well, and you should note that people who have been observed in "psychotic" states who are experiencing trails and exaggerated sensations and sustained oppositional logic are in an emotionally triggered (and sustained) state of mind. Sometimes it is physical, but often it is personality or habit based after many experiences facilitating access to the resonant state of mind (trauma, psychodrama in family etc.).

So off the bat I discount Terrence and most of the psychobabble that comes into psychedelic discussions, favoring the more simple reflection of mind as a stream of consciousness forming new memory and continouously producing a series of perceptive reflexes that are very personal expressions of that memory.


so as to your questions:

1. Could it be that I was stuck in between with 3g and that I could come beyond the chaotic visuals with higher dosage? Terence said so. To me, the visuals have been like de-saturated (with 2g and also with 3g). Ok, there are colors, but they are not super bright. So a part in me thinks: 2g -> 3g increased the chaos. Going for 5g will lead to more of it. Another part thinks: take 5g, go beyond the visulas. Any experiences / hints in this regard?
2. No feelings of love, being one etc. This is a usual issue I have in normal life also. Only every now and then it shows through. It got much better with micro dosing. I can not understand how everybody says the trip has been so intense and live changing. Ok, I suffer from migraine once a year and already knew that reality is an illusion and that it can break away within a second. I asked my self: if i meditate and don't stick to anything, everything is random / irrelevant. But what remains? I could not find loving awareness; behind all the illusions there's nothing. Are there any good readings regarding these question?
3. When practicing holotropic breathwork, I can feel the loving awareness. However I can not hold / recreate these feelings a few hours later. I was thinking that tripping might lead my brain out of the de-emotionalized lock-up. Are there experiences with doing e.g. a mild holotropic breathing for the 1st hour after intake, to generate these feelings and possibly steer e the setting for the trip?
4. An interpretation could also be that although I believed that I left my ego behind, and that there showed no Grof's coex system, the feeling of being 'It' in chaos, alone, generating this universe of consistency, could exactly be one of my coex systems? However thinking about it as hypothesis I can not identify any resonance in me; i have no ideas what do do about it or how to work with it. Any hints in this regard?
5. Leary writes that experienced trippers could/should use less (his table states 40-60 mg Psilocybin for new users - possibly to break-up their mind, however a quite large dose with respect to what is recommended nowadays; 20-30 mg for experienced users). So an alternative to 5g could be to go with a lower dose to not get overwhelmed by visuals and concentrate on meditation. Any experiences in this regard?
6. Last but not least: I go for mushrooms for the above mentioned reasons (teaching entity, sustainable supply). Should I, based on my microdosing experiments, go for LSD?

1. all the senses are affected at the same time: signals are stretched through time and overlap, the higher the dose the more overlapping will occur. this may not seem to be more vivid, or more sharp, in vision: especially if your eyes are moving you will see a changing impression that is chaotic overlays of edges and hints of colors, but if your eyes are more relaxed then it is possible to observe something hyper dimensional, or a 3-d version of your environment that is much more detailed than normal as your brain stitches together a panoramic view somewhat like digital cameras can do.

So a person with a sublime calm viewing habit will experience psychedelic visuals that may start with hyper-reality, and when perception kicks in recognizing the highly detailed view components, those perceptions will ramify building upon what they are perceiving and that all will be enhanced as well producing images that intensify internaly (or hyperdimensionally) with incredulously detailed imagination. This also happens in dreams.

This is not necessarily dose related: a calm person, 'A' taking 2 grams may see all of that, but an everyday defensive Joe, 'B' will not see that even if they take 6 grams and black out (which is likely on higher doses)

Person 'B' is missing out, not because of dosage or activities or set and setting, but because they are twitchy and reactive, (you may fall into this category and it could take years of trying to calm down visually for you to see what you thought you might see using psychedelics which person "A" had proudly reported).

2. The psychedelic legends of "an underlying dimension of love" is more of an expression of how a person can keep on relaxing and letting go and keeping aware, it is the love for themselves that is being expressed following the direction of making the world into a better experience. All the hype about it is bogus, but the truth is still real and very close to one's idea of taking good care of a child and not stopping when they frett, helping them to be calm and reconnect with what is happening. You may have to drop the expectation of love as a gift from psychedelics, it is not a gift it is what you put out while relaxing your mind and body for your own benefit and for that of others to keep the channel of being in the moment open. This is about how to trip in the moment, and when you do it you can see that it is real and has real effects, but it is not a separate thing, even if you think you are tapping into it, what is happening is you are relaxing and keeping open awareness of all senses and honest reflections in mind. It is not dose related.

3. when ever you start to be aware of your breath you are beginning again. it is not like a test tube material with a time frame expiration (well there is the lasting benefit of 5 minutes when not stoned of short term memory, but short term memory while stoned is lessened, often people cannot remember why they walked into a particular room or even what is their name) -

Beginning again to follow (not to control) the breath is essential to keeping the channel of being in the moment open. Eventually it can seem to sustain itself and you may (many do) think you are enlightened, but no, it is temporary, and the "love channel" begins closing the moment you are distracted from the breath or whatever was most self soothing.

4.groff is F.O.S. do not try to map his nonsense onto yourself, and forget about ego, it is not a separate thing from mind and body and the ongoing memory perception familiarity thing that is consciousness.

5. if you can get into the moment, by relaxing and following the breath you do not need very much - the additional dosages just increase resonance and layering effects. More is not better but it is more hallucinatory and the hallucinatory content is your mental content layered more heavily on itself. Nothing magic about it.

6. if you have a good source for lsd and can get a goodly amount to make doses for a year or so (I like 20 mics to 25 mics usually every 3rd or 4th day which is more than microdosing) then it is the more standardized way of dosing. Mushrooms vary shroom to shroom and batch to batch, but the teaching you get from that is not to be such a control freak.