Kratom raises tolerence or acts like a blocker to oxycodone?

[Rachrach]

Kratom's opioid component is infitismily tiny. Even so, unless you obtain actual leaves you really have no idea what you are consuming, let alone being able to quantify it. In the end, it will not have anything to do with your opioid habit. For example, the tiny opioid content is not mitigated by antagonists.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Well you asked for opinion's on Kratom. If it interact's with Oxy I don't know. 7-OHM's binding affinity, and that other present alkaloid's that are either mu receptor antagonist's or agonist's, should give atleast some clue's. Binding affinity is what matters and that of Oxycodone, the strongest wins.

But I never really labeled the WD's of Kratom as severe. Could be my body chemistry and taper. First it gives me energy/ drive/ calmness, doses of 3/ 5 gram of good Red Borneo/ Green Malay 3/5 times a day. Sometimes reaching 9 gram doses.

Then after experiencing this positive effects with only tiny higher doses needed. One day I'll wake take it and it won't work. And the good are replaced by semi-depressed feeling's and lack of energy. Then I tapered, stopped a month and it would work again. Untill the point of saturation or self limimtation of Kratom.

Might be I am unique experiencing this. But WD's from Kratom are ime a walk in the park.

 

[JackARoe]

Let's face it, oxycodone creates a tolerance to oxycodone. Long before I even had kratom I would get OC 20's in 1999 from a friend who was prescribed it. This friend liked street heroin better and he would give me handfuls of the 20's. In the beginning one 20 did it. After some time it took a lot more. I don't see that with morphine, at least with me. I also hear from people that have been on oxy for years, one person 80-100 mgs a day, never did kratom and still does not feel his oxy at all. Just keeps him well.

Yes kratom can temporarily raise tolerance. But that helped me stay away from pills. And it does take some time off to reset but it does.

 

[Direwolf131]

Here is my experience with kratom, I take 300 mg of tramadol every day, thats 1 x 50 x 6 a day as a chronic pain patient. I have not really abused narcotics though I do periodically break them in half and will consume that extra half (25 mg) for a month or so at a time, which will result in a shortfall of 15 tabs at the end of a month, most chronic pain patients will end up in that routine, not really abusing it, but pushing the envelope nonetheless. The following pertains strictly to tramadol, taken largely exactly as prescribed, I have found that 5-6 capsules of kratom (red Maenga) forms a pretty decent analog to one 50 mg tramadol, though it will wear off far more quickly, usually any and all effects gone within 3-3.5 hours time. I am 5"10 175 lbs, and have been on tramadol for ten plus years, again every single day, thus I am obviously dependent upon the tramadol, and cannot just stop it absent a serious tapering schedule. All this said, if I am in shortfall (early) I have found that I can makie up that difference by substituting the very first dose of tramadol a day, with 2.5-3 grams of the kratom, thats 5-6 capsules. That kratom will last about 3.5 hours, and at the 4-4.5 hour mark I will then resume the tramadol, never taking them together! This has proven itself extremely effective at making up that shortfall, and I never take any more of the kratom than that one morning dosing, again keeping in mind I am taking that tramadol at 1 x50 x 6 a day. In other words I am not mixing up a huge amount of substances and throwing caution to the wind..... Good luck and I hope someone finds this useful.

 

[Cbk1013]

give this thread a boost and see if we can get anymore experience and feedback...but I've come to the conclusion that Kratom should not be used if your an opiate user or it will sky rocket tolerance and render your opiates useless almost

 

[Beenhereb4]

I am so glad to hear others are having this problem. I went through a year or taking a lot of fent. Dirty 30s. Before that I was a casual/regular user of hydrocodone. Before fent I had a decent tolerance but could still achieve a good head nod or solid high without much effort.

I stopped the fent a year ago, and only occasionally get my hands on hydro or morphine sulfate. The rest of the time I am a daily user of kratom. And I can say I rarely, if ever, get anything from taking hydro, morph, or oxy. An energy boost maybe but that's about it. And I can take 150-200+ mg of any of those and pretty much feel completely normal.

It was only after reading through threads on here that I learned how much kratom messes with opiate tolerance. I haven't been able to lay off the stuff long enough to confirm it's the problem. But it's the only logical explanation. I know fent obviously affected my tolerance for a while but it's been over a year. Surely that's not the issue.

I hate it bc I still waste money on tabs hoping to just get one good buzz but I'll down 15-20 at a time and feel next to nothing. I've tried tagamet, plugging, snorting and the results never change. So I guess it's time to stop the kratom and hopefully get my tolerance down to a normal level. The bad part is I don't even care much for kratom. It's expensive, nasty as shit, and it will stop my bowels up for days.

I doubt this is very helpful to anyone but I wanted to share my own experience.

 

[OceansState]

I dont take any pain killers but I have a bad habit with high dosed Loperamide for years. I was able to quit for a few days and lowered the dose from 140mg+ per day down to 70mg/day.

I started taking Kratom, 2g per dose a few times a day and I was able to rapidly taper the Loperamide with no withdrawal symptoms except trouble sleeping. Went from that 70mg/day to 30mg today. I dont even know if I needed the 30mg loperamide today its just I have something big to do tomorrow and didnt want to risk dealing with any withdrawals.

I have no idea how Loperamide works but Kratom seems to help alot.

Ill wake and take 4 capsules of kratom for 2g dose, then another 30 minutes later ill take another 4 capsules and I feel good till the afternoon.

 

[Cbk1013]

I don't have any great advice but bupe and kratom def mess with opiate tolerence almost to the point its not worth taking but we still take it hoping it will be different this time ...do I get a little relief sure but its just very dull ...the further you can get out from last dose of kratom or bupe the harder it will hit but I wouldn't expect it to hit like it once did... I cant speak much about kratom I've only tried it that one time and as soon as I found out it killed my opiate tolerance I aborted...But I can speak on opiates and its such a hard game to play and it wears you down slowly but surely.. less is always better ...I don't have any magic answers but I know your pain and I wish you the best.

 

[idontremember]

My experience with Kratom and percocet was that they cancelled each other put and it suuuucked. Same with suboxone. Everyone is different bit I wouldn't take them together. I did because I was going through withdrawals. I had gone from dilaudid to being cut off and put on a small amount of percocet and it was awful. Anyway, maybe I'm wrong and it's because I was in withdrawals but it seemed to negate the percocet.

 

[helpingout]

Kratom has a half life of six days. Your receptors aren’t unoccupied for six days. The mitragynine has a high affinity for that receptor. I’m pretty sure it only works on the mu one as well.

Basically take seven days off of kratom and opiates will work again.

The trouble comes in a psychological form. You’ll be taking way more than your usual opiate dose trying to breakthrough or whatever. But it’s not a breakthrough situation. It’s an affinity situation. Use an ope with a high affinity like fent or bupe and you feel it. But until you wait that six days for the mitragyning to lift off the receptor. You’re not really going to feel opies at all.

 

[Direwolf131]

Kratom has a half life of six days. Your receptors aren’t unoccupied for six days. The mitragynine has a high affinity for that receptor. I’m pretty sure it only works on the mu one as well.

Basically take seven days off of kratom and opiates will work again.

The trouble comes in a psychological form. You’ll be taking way more than your usual opiate dose trying to breakthrough or whatever. But it’s not a breakthrough situation. It’s an affinity situation. Use an ope with a high affinity like fent or bupe and you feel it. But until you wait that six days for the mitragyning to lift off the receptor. You’re not really going to feel opies at all.

I've never even noticed such, the tramadol still works, and works much better at that, its a far more potent opioid. To me the kratom, which I really do not like, is a decent tool for filling in for the morning dose of tramadol for a week or two if you are ahead of your schedule, but if you were to replace the tramadol with the kratom altogether, you'd need large and frequent dosing of the kratom, and even then it would suck compared to the tramadol. This is because Tramadol works, at least for me, for far longer, kratom for me is all but long gone after two hours!

 

[helpingout]

I’m not at all saying kratom is more potent. I am saying it has a high affinity for the receptor.

Its morphine equivalency is a joke. But that doesn’t stop it from having morphine cross tolerance.

Another way to think of it is backwards. Strength wise a 50mg tramadol can be replaced with about 6-9 grams of powder.

But a 60mg morphine will require significantly more kratom far more often. And when you go back to morphine. You’ll need to take more morphine than you used to.

I don’t know much about tramadol but I’m pretty sure it’s a synthetic. It seems like the synthetics : fent, buprenorphine, tramadol, get along well with kratom and don’t have much cross tolerance.

The natural opioids like codeine, morphine, even diamorph all have some severe cross tolerance issues with kratom tho.

That’s about the limit of my knowledge so I’m going to back out of the conversation.
Cheers.

 

[helpingout]

I’m not at all saying kratom is more potent. I am saying it has a high affinity for the receptor.

Its morphine equivalency is a joke. But that doesn’t stop it from having morphine cross tolerance.

Another way to think of it is backwards. Strength wise a 50mg tramadol can be replaced with about 6-9 grams of powder.

But a 60mg morphine will require significantly more kratom far more often. And when you go back to morphine. You’ll need to take more morphine than you used to.

I don’t know much about tramadol but I’m pretty sure it’s a synthetic. It seems like the synthetics : fent, buprenorphine, tramadol, get along well with kratom and don’t have much cross tolerance.

The natural opioids like codeine, morphine, even diamorph all have some severe cross tolerance issues with kratom tho.

That’s about the limit of my knowledge so I’m going to back out of the conversation.
Cheers.

To criticize my arguement: OxyCodone is synthetic and suffers from cross tolerance as well. But I also understand that oc is synthesized from thebaine which is a natural alkaloid.

I’m not trying to be exact with my assessment, I don’t pretend to be right, but I will say as a general rule if it’s morphine based: codeine transforming into morphine in the liver, morphine being morphine, diamorph being morphine with bbb permeability: you’re going to have cross tolerance

. Otherwise it tends to pair up well with synthetics. Kratom and suboxone can be nice together. But too much sub and you will ruin both.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Kratom's opioid component is infitismily tiny. Even so, unless you obtain actual leaves you really have no idea what you are consuming, let alone being able to quantify it. In the end, it will not have anything to do with your opioid habit. For example, the tiny opioid content is not mitigated by antagonists.

I disagree with what you're saying here, respectfully. I'd be interested to see what kind of research you are looking at. Kratom is relatively new on the block, at least as far as "Western Medicine" is concerned. We know that it has been used in its heartland, Southeast Asia for some time, mostly as a painkiller.

We know at this point that the active alkaloids within the Kratom plant are Mitragynine and its analogs. Mitragynine has been shown to be an Opioid agonist based upon research into the pharmacology of the plant.

It's telling that Kratom largely became popular as it was used by Opioid-dependent individuals as a stop-gap solution when other Opioids were unavailable and also as a withdrawal aid; Mitragynine is an Opioid of relatively mild potency, so folks tend to use it to step down from stronger Opioids.

We know that the research available to us clearly indicates that Mitragynine is an Opioid agonist. In addition, we have a tremendous amount of case studies just here on Bluelight of individuals who are Opioid-dependent using it in the above-stated applications. There have been analogs of Mitragynine sold of higher potency that Opioid-dependent individuals compare to Opioids in essentially every way.

The argument isn't really "is it an Opioid" the argument is "does it do other things aside from its Opioid agonism". It might do other things, but Occam's Razor would suggest that it's an Opioid and that's why Opioid users like it.

 

[ghostandthedarkness]

Ive been taking oxycodone 10mg tabs 50-80mg daily for a few years now for addiction and honest health issues being neuropathy that I don't wish on anyone and just discovered OPMS gold capsules (usually take 2-3 gold capsules a day) and have used in between when I run out of my prescription early which always happens. I feel as though taking the kratom has really messed up my enjoyment of oxycodone which might actually be a good thing.. anyone have any idea how long I should stay off the kratom before taking oxycodone again to get the desired result which for me is just a really nice feeling of relaxation and concentration. I know everyone is different but I swear the Kratom has done something and Im not sure it is reversible? Any thoughts or experience with this ? I know I'll never regain first day of opiates but I mean this Kratom has made a monster dent in the enjoyment of taking them almost to the point that I will stop and try to find something else.. Feedback appreciated

kratom always dirtied up a real opioid high for about 2 days for me.

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

Kratom raises tolerence or acts like a blocker to oxycodone?​

For me yes mostly. Kratom has a lot going on with it. Can't give anything other than opinion; no citations but it kinda "ruins" the oxy? For me anyway.
Ymmv
Be safe y'all.
Late

 

[chippermonk]

Kratom has a half life of six days. Your receptors aren’t unoccupied for six days. The mitragynine has a high affinity for that receptor. I’m pretty sure it only works on the mu one as well.

Basically take seven days off of kratom and opiates will work again.

Are you sure about that? I have read elsewhere on BL ( and other places) that it has a half life of 24 hrs
Now as to how long it interferes with the effects of opiates by raising tolerance, that is another matter. But it seems like it's not going to be occupying those receptors for 6 days if the halflife is only 24 hrs? So blocking not an issue via the receptors.
( if anyone can clarify this, please do)

 

[helpingout]

Are you sure about that? I have read elsewhere on BL ( and other places) that it has a half life of 24 hrs
Now as to how long it interferes with the effects of opiates by raising tolerance, that is another matter. But it seems like it's not going to be occupying those receptors for 6 days if the halflife is only 24 hrs? So blocking not an issue via the receptors.
( if anyone can clarify this, please do)

I am wrong. The half life is 24 hours and the time before it’s not detectable is somewhere from six to fifteen days. I made the error because when I’ve kicked kratom it has taken me 6-7 days to feel better. Here’s some supporting evidence.

More recently, mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine pharmacokinetics were reported in five participants over 120 h after a single 39 mg mitragynine dose in 2 g kratom tea [26]

Human Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine Pharmacokinetics after Single and Multiple Daily Doses of Oral Encapsulated Dried Kratom Leaf Powder

Kratom leaves, consumed by millions worldwide as tea or ground leaf powder, contain multiple alkaloids, with mitragynine being the most abundant and responsible for most effects. Mitragynine is a partial µ-opioid receptor agonist and competitive antagonist at κ- and δ-opioid receptors; however...

www.mdpi.com

Myrtaginine has a half life of 24 hours but it will take five to six days for your receptors to be empty.


The half-life of Kratom is around 24 hours, meaning it takes approximately 5-6 days for the drug to be eliminated from the system entirely. Kratom can show up on drug screens within two days after use or even up to three months in some cases, particularly in hair tests.

How Long Does Kratom Last?

Discover 'how long does kratom last?' in your system and strategies to manage its presence effectively.

www.coniferpark.com

Supported by
After a SD, mitragynine concentrations were measurable in some subjects 10 days after dosing; however, in all cases, concentrations were <5% of Cmax.

Human Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine Pharmacokinetics after Single and Multiple Daily Doses of Oral Encapsulated Dried Kratom Leaf Powder

Kratom leaves, consumed by millions worldwide as tea or ground leaf powder, contain multiple alkaloids, with mitragynine being the most abundant and responsible for most effects. Mitragynine is a partial µ-opioid receptor agonist and competitive antagonist at κ- and δ-opioid receptors; however...

www.mdpi.com

I am wrong again here.

Myrtaginine does not have the affinity of morphine.
Same source as above

Mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine are partial agonists of the human µ-opioid receptor and competitive antagonists at κ- and δ-opioid receptors [17]. Mitragynine has a lower affinity and potency than morphine at the µ-opioid receptor

My mistake here was based on my finding that I could routinely combine suboxone with kratom and get high. I assumed this meant that kratom had some type of high affinity at the my receptor to explain why I could get high while taking subs. I forget that I was taking smaller and less frequent sub doses around 2mg every three days. I’ll look into the affinity of buprenorphine and report back.

But yes. Wrong in many regards though the modi study compilation is very helpful in understanding kratom.

 

[chippermonk]

I am wrong. The half life is 24 hours and the time before it’s not detectable is somewhere from six to fifteen days. I made the error because when I’ve kicked kratom it has taken me 6-7 days to feel better. Here’s some supporting evidence.

More recently, mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine pharmacokinetics were reported in five participants over 120 h after a single 39 mg mitragynine dose in 2 g kratom tea [26]

Human Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine Pharmacokinetics after Single and Multiple Daily Doses of Oral Encapsulated Dried Kratom Leaf Powder

Kratom leaves, consumed by millions worldwide as tea or ground leaf powder, contain multiple alkaloids, with mitragynine being the most abundant and responsible for most effects. Mitragynine is a partial µ-opioid receptor agonist and competitive antagonist at κ- and δ-opioid receptors; however...

www.mdpi.com

Myrtaginine has a half life of 24 hours but it will take five to six days for your receptors to be empty.


The half-life of Kratom is around 24 hours, meaning it takes approximately 5-6 days for the drug to be eliminated from the system entirely. Kratom can show up on drug screens within two days after use or even up to three months in some cases, particularly in hair tests.

How Long Does Kratom Last?

Discover 'how long does kratom last?' in your system and strategies to manage its presence effectively.

www.coniferpark.com

Supported by
After a SD, mitragynine concentrations were measurable in some subjects 10 days after dosing; however, in all cases, concentrations were <5% of Cmax.

Human Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine Pharmacokinetics after Single and Multiple Daily Doses of Oral Encapsulated Dried Kratom Leaf Powder

Kratom leaves, consumed by millions worldwide as tea or ground leaf powder, contain multiple alkaloids, with mitragynine being the most abundant and responsible for most effects. Mitragynine is a partial µ-opioid receptor agonist and competitive antagonist at κ- and δ-opioid receptors; however...

www.mdpi.com

I am wrong again here.

Myrtaginine does not have the affinity of morphine.
Same source as above

Mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine are partial agonists of the human µ-opioid receptor and competitive antagonists at κ- and δ-opioid receptors [17]. Mitragynine has a lower affinity and potency than morphine at the µ-opioid receptor

My mistake here was based on my finding that I could routinely combine suboxone with kratom and get high. I assumed this meant that kratom had some type of high affinity at the my receptor to explain why I could get high while taking subs. I forget that I was taking smaller and less frequent sub doses around 2mg every three days. I’ll look into the affinity of buprenorphine and report back.

But yes. Wrong in many regards though the modi study compilation is very helpful in understanding kratom.

Thanks for all the info

 

[helpingout]

Yeah buprenorphine has high affinity at the mu receptor,

“Buprenorphine exhibits high-affinity binding to the mu-opioid receptors and slow-dissociation kinetics. In this way, it differs from other full-opioid agonists such as morphine and fentanyl, which results in milder and less uncomfortable withdrawal symptoms for the patient.”
-https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK459126/

Mytraginine has a lower affinity than morphine even. So I’m very wrong I apologize.

And also wrong on the notion of “cross tolerance”

In contrast to mitragynine, repeated administration of 7-hydroxymitragynine produces antinociceptive tolerance as well as cross-tolerance to morphine’s antinociceptive action and induces physical dependence13.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-76119-w

So the metabolite of mitragynine causes tolerance to morphine.

So yeah. Wrong on all counts.

But entirely guided by my own experience.
When I went from naive to using kratom daily to kicking kratom cold turkey it took almost two days for withdrawals to manifest and almost seven days for the agony to end.

I could use kratom and suboxone and feel high off of both.

I could switch to heron from kratom and find that I had not gone down in tolerance. I had not become naive.

But yeah. Just plain wrong. What do I do now? Delete the previous posts?