Stimulants Caffeine, Safe but counter-productive stimulant?

[Neuroprotection]

Hope it helps you.
Unfortunately for me, nicotine exacerbates my procrastinating tendencies. I don't know how many times a day I will think I need to _______, but first I'll smoke a cigarette. Or two. Or three...
But of course I also consume a lot of caffeine. You pointed out that this might be counterproductive to my motivation.

Well, I can’t say for certain, but in my personal experience as well as many online anecdotes, caffeine seems to worsen procrastination and may even impair focus. this is most likely The case for people who procrastinate due to stress as with myself. I would sometimes feel tired and consume a dose of caffeine to give me the energy to perform a certain mental task like an assignment or work project. often, the caffeine would temporarily blast away the sleepiness but replace it with agitation and anxiety. interestingly, even if the caffeine didn’t give me anxiety, it has often made me feel more intense discussed/revulsion towards a piece of work and intensified that familiar feeling that makes one desperate to run away from something they are supposed to be doing.
In contrast, nicotine will remove most of that revulsion/Extreme urge to procrastinate and give me a strange feeling of calm/content where I would just surrender to the piece of work and do it. nicotine also makes me somewhat disconnected from stress and negative emotions, in that I can still fully feel and experience them but they just don’t affect my performance.

 

[CFC]

caffeine seems to worsen procrastination and may even impair focus

A small amount of caffeine for me (like what you get in 1/4 of an espresso or something) definitely enhances focus and helps reduce procrastination without the unpleasant sides of stress or anxiety. But any more and, yeah, that kinda PTSD task initiation nightmare kicks in.

 

[Neuroprotection]

A small amount of caffeine for me (like what you get in 1/4 of an espresso or something) definitely enhances focus and helps reduce procrastination without the unpleasant sides of stress or anxiety. But any more and, yeah, that kinda PTSD task initiation nightmare kicks in.

Interesting, I’m glad that works for you. I guess there was one time when caffeine from a small cup of coffee helped me wake up for an early morning exam where I was extremely tired, however, the negative impacts were probably minimal because I generally enjoy doing exams much more than assignments and I had prepared very well for it. however, my assessments almost entirely consisted of written assignments, with the highest grades I ever achieved being when I was off caffeine for the month of Ramadan.
Have you tried any other stimulants in the absence of caffeine? if so, do you mind comparing their effects, as well as how caffeine affects traditional psychostimulants if you have taken them together?

 

[Mycophile]

Very interesting, thanks for that. i’m sure you’ll find something that works best for you. an interesting nootropic is selegiline,(L-Deprenyl) though in my opinion and at least at the doses I am planning to use, it is basically a powerful pharmaceutical drug. some people report slightly manic or mild anxiety symptoms and that’s understandable. However, it may be that some of those people are mixing it with caffeine which they probably shouldn’t. another replacement for caffeine i’m interested in trying is 300 mg bupropion tablets. other substances I would like to try on an occasional basis include; phenylpiracetam, prolintane, fencamfamin and nomifensine(This one is an exception that I might use on a daily basis). of course, I would never combine these substances together or even use them in close proximity to each other. aside from those, unless I am diagnosed with ADHD, I might use methylphenidate occasionally, although, the other substances I previously mentioned sound good enough.

I haven't heard of most of those. I tried Phenylpiracetam years ago and it didn't do much but maybe I could try it again.

I was actually lucky enough to find some Prolintane years back and it's the best stimulant I've ever tried. It's like a much cleaner and longer lasting version of Vyvanse. Unlike Dexadrine/Adderall and Vyvanse, with the exception of one time when I overdosed and threw up and felt super jittery that day, all the other times I took it it was very euphoric with no anxiety and no crash. It's VERY hard to find though. I think it would make a good antidepressant and that it should be prescribed more. However, I don't know whether or not it's physically addictive, and it's SOO much stronger than caffeine that I don't know about just using it as a substitute. I mean, just cause it's stronger doesn't mean you can't, but I'm just saying, it's on par, in terms of strength, with actual amphetamines. Great stuff though.

 

[Mycophile]

just done a bit more research and it seems to be that most of caffeine’s negative effects, especially mental anxiety and physical discomfort are caused bye adenosine A1 receptor blockade. it’s very interesting to note that activation of A1 adenosine receptors by a selective agonist has not only antianxiety and sleep promoting properties, but also antidepressant effects. in contrast, activation of A2A adenosine receptors promote depressive behaviour and suppress locomotor activity by suppressing the downstream signalling of dopamine receptors. this could be why caffeine, By blocking both classes of receptors has both negative and positive effects respectively. apparently, chronic caffeine can lead to a temporary supersensitivity of the adenosine A1 receptor, but only a very minor change in the Number/sensitivity of the A2A subtype. over activation of these receptors during withdrawal could also explain why caffeine withdrawal/abstinence also has positive and negative effects. for example, A1 hyperactivity could contribute to increased tiredness, suppression of anxiety but also possibly headaches. The initial, but very short lived depressive phase is probably linked to excessive A2A activation, which thankfully disappears very quickly.

One question that fascinated me is why The benefits of caffeine abstinence don’t disappear once homeostasis is re-established. I suspect the reason might be constitutive adenosine A1 activity fulfilling important functions. constitutive activity refers to a Receptor being able to transmit signals or influence other signalling pathways when not bound to any agonist. Areceptors constitutive activity may be similar or wildly different from its traditional agonist activated signalling pathway. opioid receptors, particularly the MU subtype are known for this, something which could explain how Mu opioid receptors contribute to amphetamine reward.
A1 adenosine receptors strongly modulate glutamate release and receptor functions in various ways. I will do a bit more reading about this and post the links if anyone wants them.

A lot of this confuses me cause I don't know much about brain chemistry. But let me ask you, does Paraxanthine cause the same kind of Adenosine A1 receptor blockade that caffeine does? What about other things I ordered like Dynamine and Theacrine?

I used Paraxanthine today and it felt a bit weird, but then again, caffeine consumption also always felt weird for some reason after this caffeine detox. I actually didn't need it, and I'll make sure I don't get addicted to that either.

So, what are examples of the kinds of selective agonists that you are talking about that help with anxiety and sleep? Sounds interesting, but certainly nothing that helps with sleep could really be a stimulant could it?

I also don't understand this question:

One question that fascinated me is why The benefits of caffeine abstinence don’t disappear once homeostasis is re-established.

Do you mean that people lose the benefits of NOT consuming caffeine after a while? That doesn't make sense to me, since my two main reasons, being the anxiety and the crash, will not occur without caffeine (or at least some stimulant.)

 

[Mycophile]

How long should caffeine withdrawal symptoms actually last? Because I'm on day 9 and I did have paraxanthine which is related to caffeine, (I won't let myself get addicted to that), but overall, i think the caffeine WD is mostly over.

I am on some "quitting caffeine" forums on facebook, and there are NUMEROUS people who swear they are still not feeling normal YEARS after quitting coffee. So, what is people's take on this? Surely it's not possible that the PURELY PHYSICAL symptoms of caffeine dependency could last for months or even years? That doesn't make any sense.

One guy said he drank 30 cups of coffee a day for 40 years, which is pretty insane, so I don't know if maybe he did some permanent damage to himself. Several people have talked about "healing from the damage done by caffeine", but can caffeine really do long term damage to the brain?

Others will repeat that "how long it takes to feel better is dependent on how much caffeine you consumed and for how long," but that really doesn't make sense. Isn't that contrary to everything we know about how it works? Cause if that's true then I'm not going to be a happy camper...

 

[CFC]

the highest grades I ever achieved being when I was off caffeine for the month of Ramadan.

I think that's normal with ADHD. Our in-built hyperfocus will typically give superior results to any stimulant. And taking a stimulant before an exam may cause impairment, since you're already amply hyped by the stress and short deadline.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

People are just stuck in their own heads. Everyone is different but I for one don’t believe for a second that caffeine w/d lasts years

 

[Neuroprotection]

I haven't heard of most of those. I tried Phenylpiracetam years ago and it didn't do much but maybe I could try it again.

I was actually lucky enough to find some Prolintane years back and it's the best stimulant I've ever tried. It's like a much cleaner and longer lasting version of Vyvanse. Unlike Dexadrine/Adderall and Vyvanse, with the exception of one time when I overdosed and threw up and felt super jittery that day, all the other times I took it it was very euphoric with no anxiety and no crash. It's VERY hard to find though. I think it would make a good antidepressant and that it should be prescribed more. However, I don't know whether or not it's physically addictive, and it's SOO much stronger than caffeine that I don't know about just using it as a substitute. I mean, just cause it's stronger doesn't mean you can't, but I'm just saying, it's on par, in terms of strength, with actual amphetamines. Great stuff though.

You really are lucky to have managed to get prolintane and your positive experience definitely makes me more willing to try it. it is a dopamine and norepinephrine Reuptake inhibitor, hence, it has more in common with methylphenidate or amphetamines but has absolutely nothing in common with caffeine. Prolintane was once prescribed for the treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome and has recently been considered for the treatment of age related cognitive decline, Dementia and associated depression/fatigue.

 

[Neuroprotection]

A lot of this confuses me cause I don't know much about brain chemistry. But let me ask you, does Paraxanthine cause the same kind of Adenosine A1 receptor blockade that caffeine does? What about other things I ordered like Dynamine and Theacrine?

I used Paraxanthine today and it felt a bit weird, but then again, caffeine consumption also always felt weird for some reason after this caffeine detox. I actually didn't need it, and I'll make sure I don't get addicted to that either.

So, what are examples of the kinds of selective agonists that you are talking about that help with anxiety and sleep? Sounds interesting, but certainly nothing that helps with sleep could really be a stimulant could it?

I also don't understand this question:

Do you mean that people lose the benefits of NOT consuming caffeine after a while? That doesn't make sense to me, since my two main reasons, being the anxiety and the crash, will not occur without caffeine (or at least some stimulant.)

Firstly, no worries if you don’t understand neuroscience, I am no expert either, I just learn the things I find relevant and interesting as a personal hobby.

To be honest, I don’t know much about the other substances you’ve been trying but I will do some research on them in the coming days and try to get back to you with the best answer possible.

In regards to selective A1 receptor agonists, they are only used in animal research and they’re not yet available for human use. however, I don’t think they are even practical due to rapid tolerance/down-regulation of adenosine A1 receptors that would probably occur.

Now onto your last point, I’m very sorry for confusing you. what I meant was quite the opposite. basically, people generally do not ever lose the benefits of quitting caffeine, including reduced anxiety, even once adenosine receptors have downregulated to normal levels. this could partly be because A1 adenosine receptors, even when not activated by adenosine, Play important functions in regulating glutamate release and glutamate receptors function. when caffeine is chronically present in the body, these important functions are chronically blocked likely contributing to emotional disorders and cognitive impairment in some people. this is why many people who got positive results from quitting caffeine say they felt liberated and as if they’ve got their true happy, adventurous and creative self back. such statements are probably largely true because even at the neurological level, quitting caffeine allowed the brain to function the way it normally should.

I hope my explanations helped you somewhat, but please feel free to ask me if you want clarification on anything.

 

[Neuroprotection]

How long should caffeine withdrawal symptoms actually last? Because I'm on day 9 and I did have paraxanthine which is related to caffeine, (I won't let myself get addicted to that), but overall, i think the caffeine WD is mostly over.

I am on some "quitting caffeine" forums on facebook, and there are NUMEROUS people who swear they are still not feeling normal YEARS after quitting coffee. So, what is people's take on this? Surely it's not possible that the PURELY PHYSICAL symptoms of caffeine dependency could last for months or even years? That doesn't make any sense.

One guy said he drank 30 cups of coffee a day for 40 years, which is pretty insane, so I don't know if maybe he did some permanent damage to himself. Several people have talked about "healing from the damage done by caffeine", but can caffeine really do long term damage to the brain?

Others will repeat that "how long it takes to feel better is dependent on how much caffeine you consumed and for how long," but that really doesn't make sense. Isn't that contrary to everything we know about how it works? Cause if that's true then I'm not going to be a happy camper...

Okay, so you raise some very interesting points here. firstly, whilst we should never downplay anyone’s anecdotes, it is pretty much impossible for caffeine to do any long-term brain damage unless you consume so much that you have a stroke because of it. in that case, the damage would be done by the stroke and not directly by the caffeine. The majority of people who quit caffeine have little to no cravings and generally feel much better.
Those who say they don’t feel normal even years after are most likely severely deficient in a whole range of nutrients, minerals and vitamins and may have harmed their brains through years of chronic stress and severe sleep deprivation. these two conditions are strongly exacerbated by caffeine, so you could say that caffeine was indirectly involved, but it wasn’t the main cause. despite being a rather disruptive drug, caffeine is not an amphetamine and the temporary changes it produces in the brain are rapidly reversible. finally, people who don’t feel better after quitting caffeine might also have an underlying condition whose symptoms caffeine was treating. therefore, when they stop, they assume that caffeine has caused some Brain damage because their symptoms reappear.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I think that's normal with ADHD. Our in-built hyperfocus will typically give superior results to any stimulant. And taking a stimulant before an exam may cause impairment, since you're already amply hyped by the stress and short deadline.

Sorry, I think you misinterpreted what I was saying, probably because my posts are so long. basically, there was one instance where a low-dose of caffeine helped me in an exam but that was simply because it woke me up given how early it was in the morning. however, in general, caffeine is counter-productive for me, even at low doses. that’s why I Believe I got the highest assignment grades when I wasn’t taking caffeine for a month.

 

[Neuroprotection]

People are just stuck in their own heads. Everyone is different but I for one don’t believe for a second that caffeine w/d lasts years

I would advise you to check out this link to a Reddit thread, One commentor says that the effects of caffeine are pretty much identical to those of opioids and amphetamines with the only difference being that re-dosing The same day with caffeine won’t get you high.




That goes against all I’ve ever read online, including on this site. i’ve actually heard that caffeine and traditional dopaminergic psychostimulants are not even comparable and is like comparing apples and oranges. personally, I believe that the rather unique mechanism of caffeine’s behavioural effects(Adenosine antagonism) is what generally makes it such an ineffective stimulant, especially for focus or even long-term functional use. nevertheless, the same mechanism explains why caffeine does not produce long-term adaptations to the brain even after extended use. there may be an exception in the case of children or adolescence as some research shows that caffeine can produce permanent changes which make a person much more sensitive to the rewarding effects of cocaine in adulthood. but as I’ve said previously and I’m sure you’ll agree, any long-term damage/brain change sustained by caffeine is probably indirectly induced as a result of chronic sleep deprivation. I started consuming caffeine in very early childhood and consumed massive amounts on a daily basis in my teen years. Some suggest this could’ve contributed to my ADHD and chronic fatigue like symptoms, but what they miss out is that I was also chronically sleep deprived, constantly extremely emotionally stressed and consumed huge amounts of sugar and processed food.
In terms of adults Who say that caffeine started in adulthood has permanently changed their brain, I really don’t believe that. I empathise/sympathise with them and believe they should be guided to try and find the reason why they’re feeling this way. it’s most likely to be a nutritional deficiency or an underlying condition.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Kratom has really caught my attention now, given that it is related to coffee, but contains no xanthine alkaloids and acts more like a mixture of opioid and traditional, though very mild dopaminergic stimulants. only thing I’m slightly concerned about is that kratom was described by the YouTuber ‘psyched substance’ as being like smoking in terms of cravings, addictive potential and regular redosing. is this true?
Also, does anyone have any idea of how frequently kratom can be used before extensive tolerance develops to its major effects?
Additionally, since I’m only looking for the mild stimulant effect and not a full blown opioid experience, plus I’ve never used opioids before, Will this affect my risk of dependence. I’ve noticed that most people who use kratom Report using powerful opioids before, along with kratom or afterwards and I’m sure this will make them more vulnerable to addiction generally.
Finally, is there a dose rrange where Kratom only produces stimulant affects and not opioid effects? if so, does tolerance develop to the stimulant effects and if it does, how long does it take to reverse them with abstinence?
Sorry for all these questions, it’s just I’ve heard a lot of people saying Kratom has really helped their work ethic even in the long-term.
If this is true, I’m not exactly in a rush to develop a dependency on it since nicotine should do the job for me just fine along with the fact Kratom alkaloids have been shown to induce cognitive decline and suppressed memory formation in high doses. would love to know if anyone can elaborate on this, is it a temporary or permanent phenomenon?

 

[jasperkent]

I for one don’t believe for a second that caffeine w/d lasts years

I can assure you that it does not.
There is no drug on earth that has WD lasting "years."

 

[CFC]

Kratom has really caught my attention now

Ever considered chewing khat?

 

[Mycophile]

Ever considered chewing khat?

Can anyone even find it? I've been interested in trying it but it seems like a practically extinct drug, kind of like Qaaludes.

 

[Mycophile]

Kratom has really caught my attention now, given that it is related to coffee, but contains no xanthine alkaloids and acts more like a mixture of opioid and traditional, though very mild dopaminergic stimulants. only thing I’m slightly concerned about is that kratom was described by the YouTuber ‘psyched substance’ as being like smoking in terms of cravings, addictive potential and regular redosing. is this true?
Also, does anyone have any idea of how frequently kratom can be used before extensive tolerance develops to its major effects?
Additionally, since I’m only looking for the mild stimulant effect and not a full blown opioid experience, plus I’ve never used opioids before, Will this affect my risk of dependence. I’ve noticed that most people who use kratom Report using powerful opioids before, along with kratom or afterwards and I’m sure this will make them more vulnerable to addiction generally.
Finally, is there a dose rrange where Kratom only produces stimulant affects and not opioid effects? if so, does tolerance develop to the stimulant effects and if it does, how long does it take to reverse them with abstinence?
Sorry for all these questions, it’s just I’ve heard a lot of people saying Kratom has really helped their work ethic even in the long-term.
If this is true, I’m not exactly in a rush to develop a dependency on it since nicotine should do the job for me just fine along with the fact Kratom alkaloids have been shown to induce cognitive decline and suppressed memory formation in high doses. would love to know if anyone can elaborate on this, is it a temporary or permanent phenomenon?

So, to do my best to answer your questions, FOR ME, Kratom is fairly addictive, but not probably anywhere near the level of nicotine (I don't smoke though so I don't know.) I can take Kratom maybe 2 days a week spread out and not get withdrawal. If I take it 3 days a week, especially close together, then I will. I get really tired and depressed with a runny nose for 3 days when I get addicted, but if I just push through then it's over. Nevertheless, those negative WDs make me use it much less. It also keeps me up at night if I take it too late and that's even if I take a sedating dose. There's other alkaloids that last after the pleasant effects are over and they feel very adrenergic to me and not in a good way. After the nice effects of Kratom wear off I'm just awake but a bit irritable. It's a morning drug for me. I mean, you can MAYBE try to use that excess stimulant effect afterwards for productivity, but it's a bit scatterbrained and not fun. It's sort of like taking ephedrine/psuedephedrine--jittery irritable energy. So be aware that if you take it too late you'll be up for hours even though the pleasant effects only last about 4. I leave at least 6 hours, meaning I never dose Kratom closer than 10 hours before bed.

I think others would say that it really depends on the person how often you can take Kratom before you get tolerance and feel like upping your dose. It can happen pretty quickly for me.

As far as stimulant effects (while on your dose, not after it wears off), generally speaking, lower doses are more stimulant and higher doses more sedating, and people often say that white strains are the most stimulating, red the most sedating, and green in the middle. However, I think a lot of that may be B.S. and be dependent on vendor. Kratom strains can be a bit unpredictable and Kratom often doesn't mix well with other drugs. I wouldn't say there's a specific dose range that I could be sure would be stimulating, but for me, when I haven't taken it in a long time, usually anything over 3 grams becomes sedating.

To reverse the tolerance inducing effects I'd say 3-4 weeks off should do it for me. But the other problem I encounter with Kratom is that it stops working randomly. I can't seem to get good effect out of it these days or if I can it never feels like it used to. There's all sorts of potentiators that people use from Tumeric to black seed oil to Mucuna Pruriens etc. They can increase the positive effects or ruin the experience depending on different factors. Kratom is very finicky really: when it works it works REALLY well, and when it doesn't it can feel kind of unpleasant. That's just my 2 cents.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I can assure you that it does not.
There is no drug on earth that has WD lasting "years."

That’s true, with the only possible exception being benzodiazepines. however, that’s probably because of kindling.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Ever considered chewing khat?

Yes, actually I’m ethnically from Yemen where the stuff is really popular. I’m going to try it once I’ve been off caffeine for a month or more. however, I think it’s really hard for a first time user to notice anything and the method of consumption is time-consuming. I would actually like to try chewing Coca, i’ve heard good things about that.