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Pride in one's Country - Serious or silly ?

Patriotism? Does this mean that if there were an atomic bomb about to go off in America and you can't disarm it, but you can move it into Mexico, you would do it? Because you put America first? (Assume in this hypo. that the bomb would kill the same number of people in each country.)
Once you realize that an American life is not worth more than the life of any other person, that an American is not more likely to be decent and good than any other person, then you realize that patriotism is not a positive feeling. It is really only good for getting the people in a country mad at people in another country. Fine if you are in a war, but otherwise not so hot.
~psychoblast~
 
just because you're patriotic doesn't mean you're stupid and willing to risk your life. Nor does it mean you are arrogant toward other countries. Because after all, you should be proud of the world as often as you can. I don't care how many people are dying/getting killed, I will find reason to be proud of the world that I live in. That's just me though, I tend to be positive, not cynical.
[ 07 November 2002: Message edited by: C12H17N2O4P ]
 
if only that balance were as easy to find for others. I find no patriots in my country, and few in australia. Patriotism here is regarded as supporting politics, and the negative aspects of policy - so rarely any1 does it. i think a more balance veiw of local policy and culture is healthier than blind endorsement.
 
you know it's possible to support the means of political change (government) while actively trying to change it :)
 
If democracy were the fantastic cure-all that americans make it out to be, sure. But most voters are dumb to the core, and most politicians are corruptable if not corrupt. I dont see how you can change these facts. I vote evry election, and i WHOLEhearted try and change things. However it rarely works....Mostly because of human nature, and democracies inability to account for it. If only there was a system which COUNTED on people being too dumb and selfish to think of the big picture and long-term.
I guess your entitled to like the system if you like. I just dont personally get how, as its the system that is responsible for its outcomes.
 
It's like cleaning a fish. What needs to be done is to scrape the guts of the animal out first.
Sadly, the time is not ripe. Retreat to letters to political figures, protests of choice, desire to participate in comittees, etc. But know, there are many people like me, waiting for the chance to spring upon the oppurtunity to revolutionize the world.
 
C12H17N2O4P,
You claim that what you have pride in is the people of america.
Not the government, not the land, nothing else, just the people.
Since you obviously do not know all american people, you cannot validly claim to have pride in american people.
Therefore, what you must mean is that you take pride in American culture (whatever you interpret it to be).
You have not said that you take pride in any other country, so I believe it is safe to asssume that you do not take pride in any other cultures.
Why is this?
Do you believe American culture is better than other cultures? If so, why?
"Everything comes from people. Without people there would be nobody thinking the thoughts, constructing the borders, penning down the laws, etc etc. Country is the people that claim to belong to it. It is as simple as that."
"The people that live in that physical border and claim to be from that physical border is the heart and guts of a country."
You are continually speaking of the government as this separate force from the people, and yet, in your statements above, you have essentially said that everyone, including the government, is the people.
My point is:
The Government is the people.
Aren't the people the government of the government?
Isn't the government made up of the people?
Saying that the government and the people are separate things is like saying your brain is separate from your body.
Therefore, if you say that you take pride in the
american people, you also take pride in the american government.
Please understand, I'm not trying to sound repugnant, I'm just trying to figure out what you really believe, and why.
Namaste! :D
-Luminary
[ 07 November 2002: Message edited by: Luminary ]
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C12H17N2O4P:
Now you say you are proud of the WORLD? I'm beginning to think I'm debating an idiot. Try to comprehend this: Pride is not the same as affection. Or satisfaction. Pride is a sense of self-congratulation and accomplishment in some result where a worse result was possible.
You can be proud of YOUR contributions to the world, to America, etc. But "pride in the world" and "pride in America" are really just red flags to show the speaker is a moron, at least with respect to linguistic comprehension. And/or that the person likes to take credit where it is NOT due. And/or that the person feels that America and the World are "superior" than the alternative nations / planets.
Why the hell can't all you people who say you are proud of America, just change it to say you love America, or you like America? How hard is that? Doesn't that express exactly what you are REALLY trying to express?
You are taking a good thing, affection for one's country, and turning it into a prejudicial thing by insistence on the word "pride." Get a clue.
~psychoblast~
 
luminary, stop putting words in my mouth, please. And, pyschoblast, there's no reason to lower yourself to insulting me.
Pride - Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association.
I am very pleased with this world. Maybe that's just a little out of some people's reach to grasp the idea of being so positive. Strife, famine, murder, etc all happen, all the time. But there's still reason to be happy/proud/affectionate about/for the world, your country, other's countries, your culture, other's cultures. The choice is yours whether you want to portray yourself as a cynical ivory tower elitest, but I see it as a pitfall.
I don't see why this concept is so hard for you guys to grasp :) Pride in one (and other's) country comes automatic to me, because the country is people.
 
so I believe it is safe to asssume that you do not take pride in any other cultures.
I said it once, but I am just going to reiterate this point. Do not put words into my mouth. I do not claim to know you or your point of views on different subjects, so don't claim to know mine. Saying I believe/think something that may or may not be true just to prove a point of yours about me is not acceptable. I suggest you edit your post and rephrase it.
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And/or that the person likes to take credit where it is NOT due
Are we really as fracted as you are portraying us to be? One life, collective thought, etc. We're all floating together. ok, peace :)
/me waits for your responses...
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Originally posted by THE WOOD:
[QB]Few today take into consideration how great this country is. You can do whatever the fuck you want here.
i'm not american but i choose to live here so, generally speaking, i have some pro-US views.
however, if you truly believe that You can do whatever the fuck you want here you are living in a dream world.
America has a lot of good points but you do yourself, and the US, a great disservice by exaggerating in this way.
alasdair
[ 08 November 2002: Message edited by: alasdairm ]
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Originally posted by C12H17N2O4P:
This is, once again, crumbled down to an argument over semantics.
words are how we communicate. everything is semantics.
alasdair
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C12H17N2O4P,
you didn't give the whole definition of the word 'pride'. You only gave the second definition.
I now understand where all of this misunderstanding is coming from.
Pride's first definition is:
an unduly high opinion; exaggerated self-esteem; conceit b) haughty behavior resulting from this; arrogance
Obviously this is not the definition that immediately comes to mind for you, but it is for the rest of us. This is why so many people questioned you when you said that you have pride in America. It made you sound nationalistic.
I do not claim to know you or your point of views on different subjects, so don't claim to know mine.
If you don't want any of us to assume or misinterpret what you are saying, you need to elaborate and explain your point of view better.
I don't see why this concept is so hard for you guys to grasp Pride in one (and other's) country comes automatic to me, because the country is people.
--------------------------------------------------
Are we really as fracted as you are portraying us to be? One life, collective thought, etc. We're all floating together.
We have all have a hard time grasping your ideal of pride because you have been changing your defintion of it.
In the beginning, you said that you have pride in America. Now you are saying that you have pride in all people and cultures all over the world.
you may say that having pride in all people is also having pride in countries, since they are made up of people, but you completely forget that the concept of country has other concepts associated with it. History, laws, borders, ethics, traditions, language, government, land, and symbols are just a few examples. So, saying that you are proud of all people is much different than saying you are proud of all countries, since the term country isn't a synonym for people.
So, it's either that you didn't explain your point of view anywhere near enough for any of us to really understand what you meant, or you have completely changed what you have pride in.
If what you have stated in your quote above is what you actually feel your pride is, doesn't that essentially mean you are proud to be human?
that you are proud of the world?
If this is what you actually feel, why didn't you just say that in the first place?
Why did you even bother to say that you have pride in America, when you believe all humans are, "One life, collective thought, etc. We're all floating together."???
You would've avoided almost all argument if you would have just said all of that in the beginning of this thread.
Namaste! :D
-Luminary
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Perhaps if there was something to be proud about.
Unfortunately, there is little to be proud of (speaking solely for my country) and misplaced pride, which is a 'disease' the majority of Australian's have, severely inhibits the ability to criticise our attitudes, Government and the system that continues to fuck us over with little opposition.
Proud to be un-Australian.
 
I guess I just view humanity on a different level than you do luminary. Maybe one day you can see things from my level. :)
Don't take shit too seriously, dude. Lightheartedness is a virtue.
 
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It's the measles of the human race, as Einstein pointed out, and we'd all be a fuck of a lot better without it.
Men, Women and children are dying all over the globe for those fucking red lines, and all this conflict is the natural by-product of nationalism, in believing that those lines mean anything. They don't.
They divide us, instill distrust fear and pride into us from the moment we learn the national anthem.
 
I have nothing against anyone who has pride in their country, culture, or the land they were born on. But a country is nothing more then a few lines someone drew on a map, flag or no.
There is a negative aspect to it, when you use patriatism as a way to compete against, and destroy, other countries/economies. Whether americans have freedoms or no is a tricky subject, but they do not have any more rights then you have in a communist country, or a fascist gov't. Sure, curroption and oppression may be more open in a non-democratic gov't, but it still goes on in a domocracy.
The main bad thing about patriotism though is that it goes for the 'us vs them' mentality, and it doesn't give room to the fact that we are all humans on the one planet, and living within the same economical system. There are enough resources no the earth to feed everyone, and look after everyone, but a class based economy doesnt allow for it.
 
Also, marijuana is perfectly legal in Denmark.
Ive said a million times the USA is a teenager in the pool of world countries. Weel grow up eventually.
Denmark exists the way it does simply because of its cultural heritage, and the fact that the country is about the size of the state of Ohio. Could Denmark's political and law enforcement policies support 300,000,000 people, spanned out over thousands of miles, of varying heritages and cultural backgrounds?
Yes I totally disagree with the USA's global domination policies, however I believe "its just a phaze."
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