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  • EADD Moderators: axe battler | Pissed_and_messed

Professor Nutt's magic jizz (Sentia)

Bottom line.. does this help the cause to release this alcarelle, or add another hurdle?

It neither helps nor hinders. The fact I disclosed a compound that ISN'T covered by any of their patents (as far as I know) just shows that it's a very narrow patent.

The fact that I disclosed the fact that both a 1,4-benzodiazepine AND a 1,5-benzodiazepine emulate alcohol much more accurately is of manifest benefit to them, I would think.

What I DIDN'T disclose was the single compound that binds at both the a5b1y2 AND a5b2y2 subunits. Maybe they have solved this problem, maybe they have not. Maybe they aren't using a benzodiazepine scaffold for their newer compounds? I don't know - but their is nothing harmful to them.
 
It neither helps nor hinders. The fact I disclosed a compound that ISN'T covered by any of their patents (as far as I know) just shows that it's a very narrow patent.

The fact that I disclosed the fact that both a 1,4-benzodiazepine AND a 1,5-benzodiazepine emulate alcohol much more accurately is of manifest benefit to them, I would think.

What I DIDN'T disclose was the single compound that binds at both the a5b1y2 AND a5b2y2 subunits. Maybe they have solved this problem, maybe they have not. Maybe they aren't using a benzodiazepine scaffold for their newer compounds? I don't know - but their is nothing harmful to them.
I'm sure I heard similar. Starting using benzo in the early research, but didn't use it for the final product.

I saw a video of Nutt holding a jar containing his finished Alcarelle. Of course, it could just be water 🤣🤣🤣 as it was a clear liquid.
 
I'm sure I heard similar. Starting using benzo in the early research, but didn't use it for the final product.

I saw a video of Nutt holding a jar containing his finished Alcarelle. Of course, it could just be water 🤣🤣🤣 as it was a clear liquid.

The truth of the matter is that ANY drug that, by whatever means, results in an increased flow of chloride ions into neurons (resulting in postsynaptic hyperpolarization and CNS depression) will produce tolerance and dependence.

Yes, one can try partial agonists like pagoclone or novel ligands like kavain but at the end of the day, the neurons adjust and their is nothing you can do about it.

Now their ARE other targets. Possibly the orexin receptors and possibly the glycine or glutamate receptors, but what little we know of those targets is that tolerance and dependence still occur.

But lets not forget that the company is actually CALLED GABA Labs.

I would not be even SLIGHTLY surprised that it's simply a variant of pyeyzolam that at least would keep non-technical shareholders happy. We dissolved 1 gram of pywyzolam into 1l of dH2O and 25-35mL of the solution will reliably render anyone drinking the solution 'pseudodrunk'.

BUT as I said, pyeyzolam has a VERY steep dose-response curve. Upto about 20mg it does nothing but at 30mg people are '2 bottles of wine' drunk. So it would keep non-technical shareholders happy.

As I said, we went on to discover that a 1,5-benzodiazepine simulates lower doses of alcohol so our intermediate answer was to simply mix the 1,4-benzodiazpeine with the 1,5-benzodiazepine. But then we developed a single compound that binds to both receptor subtypes.

MAYBE GABA labs have done that. But it took some REALLY difficult chemistry to isolate that single compound. It took years... but I don't see ANY new patents which makes me think it's pyeyzolam.
 
The truth of the matter is that ANY drug that, by whatever means, results in an increased flow of chloride ions into neurons (resulting in postsynaptic hyperpolarization and CNS depression) will produce tolerance and dependence.

Yes, one can try partial agonists like pagoclone or novel ligands like kavain but at the end of the day, the neurons adjust and their is nothing you can do about it.

Now their ARE other targets. Possibly the orexin receptors and possibly the glycine or glutamate receptors, but what little we know of those targets is that tolerance and dependence still occur.

But lets not forget that the company is actually CALLED GABA Labs.

I would not be even SLIGHTLY surprised that it's simply a variant of pyeyzolam that at least would keep non-technical shareholders happy. We dissolved 1 gram of pywyzolam into 1l of dH2O and 25-35mL of the solution will reliably render anyone drinking the solution 'pseudodrunk'.

BUT as I said, pyeyzolam has a VERY steep dose-response curve. Upto about 20mg it does nothing but at 30mg people are '2 bottles of wine' drunk. So it would keep non-technical shareholders happy.

As I said, we went on to discover that a 1,5-benzodiazepine simulates lower doses of alcohol so our intermediate answer was to simply mix the 1,4-benzodiazpeine with the 1,5-benzodiazepine. But then we developed a single compound that binds to both receptor subtypes.

MAYBE GABA labs have done that. But it took some REALLY difficult chemistry to isolate that single compound. It took years... but I don't see ANY new patents which makes me think it's pyeyzolam.
Article says he has 13 molecules. Probably playing around with different effects.

Certainly partial agonist is what I've heard him bang on about. Alcohol is definitely not a partial agonist 🤮🤮
 
Article says he has 13 molecules. Probably playing around with different effects.

Certainly partial agonist is what I've heard him bang on about. Alcohol is definitely not a partial agonist 🤮🤮

Nutt isn't a medicinal chemist which is why he mistakenly thought that pagoclone would make a suitable alcohol substitute. But it turned out that the dependence liability was no different to that of conventional benzodiazepines.

Be it a full or partial agonist, it's STILL increasing the flow of those chloride ions.

The truth is, we were able to demonstrate that it was alcohols a1 activity that mediated it's 'addiction' liability because it disinhibits dopaminergenic neurons.


So things like pyeyzolam don't produce the re-enforcing effects of alcohol. BUT for most people the toxicity of alcohol acts to counter the re-enforcement (from puking to falling over to blackouts to hangovers). But when you remove all of that, it's much more likely that people would choose it to self-medicate anxiety and depression.

In short - pyeyzolam/pyeybazam mixtures or the new compound are clearly a vastly better choice than alcohol BUT they still produce physical dependence. The brain simply adjusts to that increase in chloride ions. Any sane government would enforce a huge tax on alcohol and a much lower tax on the alcohol alternatives... but IF something goes badly wrong when such drugs reach 'stage IV trials' i.e. pharmacovigilance (i.e. reading reports on adverse events caused by a drug that has already obtained a marketing licence), it would be a political disaster.

The funny thing is that the structure of pyeyzolam isn't a secret and any of those Chinese companies making pyrazolam for the RC market could produce it. I think a LOT of people would pay £10 for a pill that got them as drunk as they would from drinking 2 bottles of wine. In short, GABA Labs cannot charge a premium unless their product is significantly better...

And I see NO patents. I suspect the idea of '13 compounds' is disingenuous. It's not 13 NOVEL compounds.

BTW we even worked out that any alcohol-mimic, if consumed with alcohol would potentially result in dangerous CNS depressant effects. So we discovered that the active compound in 'tipplersbane' mushrooms is 1-aminocyclopropan-1-ol. If you add that to an alcohol alternative and someone consumes alcohol, they puke their guts out. It tastes kind of grim so we then had to work out a way of producing a tasteless prodrug. That's how far we got - we were foreseeing risks and mitigating them.

But UK law changed so the amount of funding needed to continue was vast and unlike GABA Labs, we didn't have ANYONE who was prepared to become a spokesperson. Nutt taught me an important lesson. There are people who like to do the work and there are people who like to take the credit - I aim to belong to the former category since their is far less competition.
 
Nutt isn't a medicinal chemist which is why he mistakenly thought that pagoclone would make a suitable alcohol substitute. But it turned out that the dependence liability was no different to that of conventional benzodiazepines.

Be it a full or partial agonist, it's STILL increasing the flow of those chloride ions.

The truth is, we were able to demonstrate that it was alcohols a1 activity that mediated it's 'addiction' liability because it disinhibits dopaminergenic neurons.


So things like pyeyzolam don't produce the re-enforcing effects of alcohol. BUT for most people the toxicity of alcohol acts to counter the re-enforcement (from puking to falling over to blackouts to hangovers). But when you remove all of that, it's much more likely that people would choose it to self-medicate anxiety and depression.

In short - pyeyzolam/pyeybazam mixtures or the new compound are clearly a vastly better choice than alcohol BUT they still produce physical dependence. The brain simply adjusts to that increase in chloride ions. Any sane government would enforce a huge tax on alcohol and a much lower tax on the alcohol alternatives... but IF something goes badly wrong when such drugs reach 'stage IV trials' i.e. pharmacovigilance (i.e. reading reports on adverse events caused by a drug that has already obtained a marketing licence), it would be a political disaster.

The funny thing is that the structure of pyeyzolam isn't a secret and any of those Chinese companies making pyrazolam for the RC market could produce it. I think a LOT of people would pay £10 for a pill that got them as drunk as they would from drinking 2 bottles of wine. In short, GABA Labs cannot charge a premium unless their product is significantly better...

And I see NO patents. I suspect the idea of '13 compounds' is disingenuous. It's not 13 NOVEL compounds.

BTW we even worked out that any alcohol-mimic, if consumed with alcohol would potentially result in dangerous CNS depressant effects. So we discovered that the active compound in 'tipplersbane' mushrooms is 1-aminocyclopropan-1-ol. If you add that to an alcohol alternative and someone consumes alcohol, they puke their guts out. It tastes kind of grim so we then had to work out a way of producing a tasteless prodrug. That's how far we got - we were foreseeing risks and mitigating them.

But UK law changed so the amount of funding needed to continue was vast and unlike GABA Labs, we didn't have ANYONE who was prepared to become a spokesperson. Nutt taught me an important lesson. There are people who like to do the work and there are people who like to take the credit - I aim to belong to the former category since their is far less competition.
Really hope the new stuff is kind to the liver.
 
Really hope the new stuff is kind to the liver.

Oh, ALL of the alternatives are essentially non-toxic.

The ONLY thing that slightly concerns me is that we went with the 7/8 ethynyl moiety to confer selective a5 activity BUT their was some research from the 1990s that showed that the 7/8 trimethyl silyl (-Si(CH3)3) homologues were almost as active.

And while their is no logical reason to fear (organic chemical) drugs that have a silicon in their structure... it's kind of alien. Nobody has ever got far enough with a candidate for it to reach human trials, my intuition is to be suspicious of silanes.



Derek Lowe (an esteemed medicinal chemist) has tried compounds with silicon in their structure and to my knowledge toxicity was NEVER an issue and yet it worries me. I have NO logical reason to hold that position but if I'm being honest, if and when a silicon containing drug reaches the market and is shown safe after 30 years... then I will relax. It's purely intuitive on my part but if I used a trimethylsilyl, I think it would worry me.
 
Nutt isn't a medicinal chemist which is why he mistakenly thought that pagoclone would make a suitable alcohol substitute. But it turned out that the dependence liability was no different to that of conventional benzodiazepines.

Be it a full or partial agonist, it's STILL increasing the flow of those chloride ions.

The truth is, we were able to demonstrate that it was alcohols a1 activity that mediated it's 'addiction' liability because it disinhibits dopaminergenic neurons.


So things like pyeyzolam don't produce the re-enforcing effects of alcohol. BUT for most people the toxicity of alcohol acts to counter the re-enforcement (from puking to falling over to blackouts to hangovers). But when you remove all of that, it's much more likely that people would choose it to self-medicate anxiety and depression.

In short - pyeyzolam/pyeybazam mixtures or the new compound are clearly a vastly better choice than alcohol BUT they still produce physical dependence. The brain simply adjusts to that increase in chloride ions. Any sane government would enforce a huge tax on alcohol and a much lower tax on the alcohol alternatives... but IF something goes badly wrong when such drugs reach 'stage IV trials' i.e. pharmacovigilance (i.e. reading reports on adverse events caused by a drug that has already obtained a marketing licence), it would be a political disaster.

The funny thing is that the structure of pyeyzolam isn't a secret and any of those Chinese companies making pyrazolam for the RC market could produce it. I think a LOT of people would pay £10 for a pill that got them as drunk as they would from drinking 2 bottles of wine. In short, GABA Labs cannot charge a premium unless their product is significantly better...

And I see NO patents. I suspect the idea of '13 compounds' is disingenuous. It's not 13 NOVEL compounds.

BTW we even worked out that any alcohol-mimic, if consumed with alcohol would potentially result in dangerous CNS depressant effects. So we discovered that the active compound in 'tipplersbane' mushrooms is 1-aminocyclopropan-1-ol. If you add that to an alcohol alternative and someone consumes alcohol, they puke their guts out. It tastes kind of grim so we then had to work out a way of producing a tasteless prodrug. That's how far we got - we were foreseeing risks and mitigating them.

But UK law changed so the amount of funding needed to continue was vast and unlike GABA Labs, we didn't have ANYONE who was prepared to become a spokesperson. Nutt taught me an important lesson. There are people who like to do the work and there are people who like to take the credit - I aim to belong to the former category since their is far less competition.
Gotta say it's a treat to read through your rationale and previous research. I've been ruminating on EtOH substitutes since I first heard of this company years ago and I appreciate the insight and detail.

Couple questions though,

1. Was the point of utilizing 1-aminocyclopropan-1-ol to improve safety in comparison to say, disulfiram? Or was it more related to regulatory processes/market of natural ingredients?

2. How did you go about identifying the receptor subtypes associated with EtOH? Did you publish your findings?
 
Gotta say it's a treat to read through your rationale and previous research. I've been ruminating on EtOH substitutes since I first heard of this company years ago and I appreciate the insight and detail.

Couple questions though,

1. Was the point of utilizing 1-aminocyclopropan-1-ol to improve safety in comparison to say, disulfiram? Or was it more related to regulatory processes/market of natural ingredients?

2. How did you go about identifying the receptor subtypes associated with EtOH? Did you publish your findings?

1 - Yes. Because it's natural it's not subject to receiving a marketing licence.

2 - Ethanol's affinity for the various receptor subtypes had already been published, we KNEW that a1 & a5 were the most significant so, we developed selective a5 ligands (the Z-drugs are a1 selective so we didn't need to develop probes),

And the work itself hasn't been published although Alcorette published patents for the compounds we had developed up to that point.

Beyond that, nothing has been published as that awaits patenting. Some aspects are somewhat unique and so unlike the earlier patent, it's significantly more complex to provide legal protections to all aspects. That's why I haven't detailed any of the compounds.

In short, we are happy to allow GABA Labs to have all the publicity knowing that the brewing industry (the obvious people to distribute an alcohol mimic) IS aware of our work.
 
Is the bottle still up for a try @LoginNotSecure?

Haven't read whatevers going on in this thread of late but will gladly smash the rest to see it works or not.
 
Can buy some online.. sentia. Really mild I think

I looked into the (all natural) ingredients of Sentia.

Ingredients:

B1, B12, water,

botanical extracts:

(magnolia bark (magnolia officinalis),

linden flower (tilia cordata),

passionflower (passiflora incarnata),

ashwagandha (withania somnifera),

liquorice (glycyrrhiza glabra),

rose (rosa damascena),

tulsi (ocimum teniflorum),

rhodiola (Rholdiola Rosea),

hawthorn(crataegus monogyna),

damiana (turnera diffusa),

gentian (gentiana lutea),

agave syrup (agave tequilana),

aronia concentrate (aronia melanocarp),

blackberry concentrate (rubus fruticosus),

black carrot concentrate (daucus carota ssp),

glycerine, spice extracts, acids: citric acid, malic acid, preservative: potassium sorbate.

Technically the PSA prohibits the sale of all psychoactives but I presume that a SPECIFIC chemical would have to be identified and I'm guessing that in the above are thousands of chemicals so identifying actives would be next to impossible.
 
I looked into the (all natural) ingredients of Sentia.

Ingredients:

B1, B12, water,

botanical extracts:

(magnolia bark (magnolia officinalis),

linden flower (tilia cordata),

passionflower (passiflora incarnata),

ashwagandha (withania somnifera),

liquorice (glycyrrhiza glabra),

rose (rosa damascena),

tulsi (ocimum teniflorum),

rhodiola (Rholdiola Rosea),

hawthorn(crataegus monogyna),

damiana (turnera diffusa),

gentian (gentiana lutea),

agave syrup (agave tequilana),

aronia concentrate (aronia melanocarp),

blackberry concentrate (rubus fruticosus),

black carrot concentrate (daucus carota ssp),


glycerine, spice extracts, acids: citric acid, malic acid, preservative: potassium sorbate.

Technically the PSA prohibits the sale of all psychoactives but I presume that a SPECIFIC chemical would have to be identified and I'm guessing that in the above are thousands of chemicals so identifying actives would be next to impossible.
Yes. Everything has been already approved for thousands of years or some similar party line
 
So far, all SENTIA variants are entirely plant-based, ie botanicals. However, ‘SENTIA Plus’, to be launched in 2026 in the USA, will be the first-ever beverage available to the consumer public to contain Alcarelle, a synthetic ingredient currently under development by Nutt’s team at GABA Labs

Alcarelle is expected to become available in the USA in 2026 and in EU and Asia-Pacific during 2027/2028.

Latest news
 
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I doubt it. They claim to have patent-pending synthetics... their are NO patents in the name of GABA labs.

If I simply missed their patents I really would like to see them - mostly because they bought 3 designs from me which means they own them (they offered shares instead of cash, I said no) but they did continue to co-respond (I kept all the E-mails) so if they present one of my compounds I DIDN'T sell them, I would like to know.

I sent Professor Nutt the 'supercats' and he replied enclosing my original E-mail so I have the proof. I even timestamped them so they are in a blockchain somewhere.


As it is, It's going to be a pyeyzolam derivative if anything.
 
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