Mental Health Suboxone gone this far now feel worse than usual.

[Opi_Kid_Rock]

Dear BL Members,

I have been on Suboxone coming on two years now. I am prescribed 6mg/day. This year I went from about 12mg/day down to 10mg 8 months ago, down to 8mg 4 months ago to where I’m currently at 6mg per day. These two weeks I can’t say I’m feeling well. I feel like crap from the moment I wake up to the moment I fall asleep with 8mg Quentiapine and it starts all over the next day. When I say I feel like crap, I mean I feel low energy, depressive mood, sometimes nauseous which I then take Gravol to feel a bit better. Some afternoons, I feel so depressed and lethargic that I pop another 2mg Suboxone just to be able to get something accomplished as opposed to nothing accomplished all day. This tapper off plan that I want so much to prove that I can be “sober” is harder than I thought. Anyone been close to 4mg/day and succeed jumping off and how did you feel? It doesn’t seem possible when I’m starting work beginning of next month. Your feedback is much appreciated. Thank you BL Members.

 

[Juniper Bruhmomentius]

You hit your point. Stay at 8 or 7 mg for a month of two then continue the taper by only reducing AT MOST 1mg every 2-4 months.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Anyone been close to 4mg/day and succeed jumping off and how did you feel?

Don't, just don't. It is doable but you would have to put your life on pause for 3 months and even if you made it the toll on your body and mind would be huge.

Perspective - I was on buprenorphine 3 years with last year tapering from 8mg to 0,5 - 1mg from which I jumped. Most of the problems during tapering came when I went below 3mg. I tapered slowly but couldn't stabilise on 0,5mg so I jumped. Acute withdrawal was physically easier than stopping 100mg of oxycodone but it was so long that I experienced nervous brakedown. For 3 weeks i slept maximum 2 hours daily with first 2 weeks not getting almost any sleep. I would get 5 minte sleep blackouts but it was agony. And that was with all comfort meds you can get here (pregabalin, all kind of benzos including midazolam, quetiapine, melatonin, sedating antidepressants, loperamide...you name it).

It took me 6 months after last dose to start feeling good. I had intermittent insomnia, depression, heighten pain and anxiety for another 6 months. I don't know when I felt fine cause I am still struggling. Currently preparing to stop 20G/daily kratom, but I have diagnosed chronic pain issues so that makes matters more complicated. Stopping at 4mg for me would be unbearable cause I know how bad progression of symptoms would be if I had to go through 4mg reduction in 2 weeks vs in 6 months of previous taper.

This is my experience and I don't want to scare anybody. It is definitely doable with good long taper. That way it is still tough and drawn out but the intensity is reduced. With stopping buprenorphine one has to be smart. I know that tapering also takes a toll but I would rather take that kind of anguish than the one of full on cold turkey. And I am "rip the bandaid quickly " type of person. I can see great danger for relapse if one stops at 4mg, gets bupe out of the system and is able to get high. Tapering helps with dealing with cravings and if one slips safety net of bupe in the body can safe ones life. I would recommend tapering down to at least 1mg (sublingual, 30% absorption).

That is my feedback. Maybe tapering isn't doable for you but I would think twice. If you decide to jump off have bupe near (let somebody hold it) and if it gets too hard take the bupe not H or fent.

Hope you get to the place you want to be. Take care.

 

[Opi_Kid_Rock]

Don't, just don't. It is doable but you would have to put your life on pause for 3 months and even if you made it the toll on your body and mind would be huge.

Perspective - I was on buprenorphine 3 years with last year tapering from 8mg to 0,5 - 1mg from which I jumped. Most of the problems during tapering came when I went below 3mg. I tapered slowly but couldn't stabilise on 0,5mg so I jumped. Acute withdrawal was physically easier than stopping 100mg of oxycodone but it was so long that I experienced nervous brakedown. For 3 weeks i slept maximum 2 hours daily with first 2 weeks not getting almost any sleep. I would get 5 minte sleep blackouts but it was agony. And that was with all comfort meds you can get here (pregabalin, all kind of benzos including midazolam, quetiapine, melatonin, sedating antidepressants, loperamide...you name it).

It took me 6 months after last dose to start feeling good. I had intermittent insomnia, depression, heighten pain and anxiety for another 6 months. I don't know when I felt fine cause I am still struggling. Currently preparing to stop 20G/daily kratom, but I have diagnosed chronic pain issues so that makes matters more complicated. Stopping at 4mg for me would be unbearable cause I know how bad progression of symptoms would be if I had to go through 4mg reduction in 2 weeks vs in 6 months of previous taper.

This is my experience and I don't want to scare anybody. It is definitely doable with good long taper. That way it is still tough and drawn out but the intensity is reduced. With stopping buprenorphine one has to be smart. I know that tapering also takes a toll but I would rather take that kind of anguish than the one of full on cold turkey. And I am "rip the bandaid quickly " type of person. I can see great danger for relapse if one stops at 4mg, gets bupe out of the system and is able to get high. Tapering helps with dealing with cravings and if one slips safety net of bupe in the body can safe ones life. I would recommend tapering down to at least 1mg (sublingual, 30% absorption).

That is my feedback. Maybe tapering isn't doable for you but I would think twice. If you decide to jump off have bupe near (let somebody hold it) and if it gets too hard take the bupe not H or fent.

Hope you get to the place you want to be. Take care.

Thank you for speaking from experience. This is my first run at the Suboxone Opioid Replacement Therapy and therefore I am still so naive about how strong an effect Bupe really has on my body.

 

[Juniper Bruhmomentius]

Dont forget that buprenorphine is literally 75 times stronger than morphine

 

[Opi_Kid_Rock]

Dont forget that buprenorphine is literally 75 times stronger than morphine

Wow. I didn’t know that.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Maximum buprenorphine effect has been said to plateau at ~60mg oxycodone regarding equianalgesic effect. I found that analgesia may be at ~60mg oxy but some other factors/effects make it even more strong comparatively when I tried to cone off. For me, effect of reductions became more linear, with steep curve, somewhere between 2 and 3mg. I will give you my subjective "table of effects":

6mg Bup (sl) = 100% effect ~ 100mg oxycodone
4mg Bup (sl) = 90% effect ~ 90mg oxycodone
3mg Bup (sl) = 80% effect ~ 80mg oxycodone
2mg Bup (sl) = 70% effect ~ 70mg oxycodone
1mg Bup (sl) = 40% effect ~ 40mg oxycodone
0,5mg Bup (sl) = 20% effect ~ 20mg oxycodone

Hope it helps. Off I go to bed. Have a great day!

 

[Nas47]

For what i read very similar to methadone-in terms of half life and difficulties with tappering and quitting.Long lasting withdrawl.No good think to be hooked on.For sure Kratom is way better option.But is a risky busyness if its banned where you live

 

[Jerry Atrick]

Dear BL Members,

I have been on Suboxone coming on two years now. I am prescribed 6mg/day. This year I went from about 12mg/day down to 10mg 8 months ago, down to 8mg 4 months ago to where I’m currently at 6mg per day. These two weeks I can’t say I’m feeling well. I feel like crap from the moment I wake up to the moment I fall asleep with 8mg Quentiapine and it starts all over the next day. When I say I feel like crap, I mean I feel low energy, depressive mood, sometimes nauseous which I then take Gravol to feel a bit better. Some afternoons, I feel so depressed and lethargic that I pop another 2mg Suboxone just to be able to get something accomplished as opposed to nothing accomplished all day. This tapper off plan that I want so much to prove that I can be “sober” is harder than I thought. Anyone been close to 4mg/day and succeed jumping off and how did you feel? It doesn’t seem possible when I’m starting work beginning of next month. Your feedback is much appreciated. Thank you BL Members.

I have no experience with opiate addiction or the medications used to mitigate quitting. However I do have experience with Quetiapine aka Seroquel. The immediate side effects of Seroquel for me was exactly what you described: feeling like crap, low energy, depressed mood, etc. How long have you been taking the Quetiapine?

 

[Nas47]

Seroquell is nasty,nasty antipsychotic

 

[Opi_Kid_Rock]

I have no experience with opiate addiction or the medications used to mitigate quitting. However I do have experience with Quetiapine aka Seroquel. The immediate side effects of Seroquel for me was exactly what you described: feeling like crap, low energy, depressed mood, etc. How long have you been taking the Quetiapine?

I’ve been taking Quentiapine for over two years mostly to help me fall asleep and stay asleep. I would stay up indefinitely or wake up 4 times per night.

 

[Jerry Atrick]

I’ve been taking Quentiapine for over two years mostly to help me fall asleep and stay asleep. I would stay up indefinitely or wake up 4 times per night.

I'm not suggesting you stop taking any meds. However, as an FYI, you should know that off label use of Quetiapine ie., using it as a sleep aid, has been known to cause Parkinson's symptoms in some patients. Really it's the doctors who are at fault on this one because they should know better than to prescribe a powerful antipsychotic for insomnia when there are plenty of other sleep aids out there. Now if you are bipolar or have schizophrenia or other psychotic symptoms, then by all means don't worry about the Parkinson's thing because your Quetiapine is being used for what it is made for.

 

[Opi_Kid_Rock]

I'm not suggesting you stop taking any meds. However, as an FYI, you should know that off label use of Quetiapine ie., using it as a sleep aid, has been known to cause Parkinson's symptoms in some patients. Really it's the doctors who are at fault on this one because they should know better than to prescribe a powerful antipsychotic for insomnia when there are plenty of other sleep aids out there. Now if you are bipolar or have schizophrenia or other psychotic symptoms, then by all means don't worry about the Parkinson's thing because your Quetiapine is being used for what it is made for.

I should ask my Doctor about it. Because I say that it helps me, it gives them no inclination to deny me that medication.

 

[LivingOnValium]

Seroquell is nasty,nasty antipsychotic

Out of all antipsychotics seroquel is the lightest one. If one has to take antipsychotics seroquel causes the least amount of side effects. However it is a nasty drug, as are all the other APs.

 

[Jerry Atrick]

I should ask my Doctor about it. Because I say that it helps me, it gives them no inclination to deny me that medication.

Sounds good. I would also ask about the sudden onset of depression and feeling sapped. In my mind, if the depression is caused by medication, it is either the Seroquel, the Suboxone, or some reaction of the two mixing.

Then again, I have never experienced opiate w/ds so I don't know if this feeling is normal to the process or an anomaly.

 

[Jerry Atrick]

Out of all antipsychotics seroquel is the lightest one. If one has to take antipsychotics seroquel causes the least amount of side effects. However it is a nasty drug, as are all the other APs.

Be careful with blanket statements like this. If you read my posts above, I speak about my own experiences without stating that my reactions would be the same for everyone else. Antipsychotics treat every person differently, so I think it is more of a subjective experience. For myself, Seroquel was the "heaviest" AP as far as short term effects. I began taking my doses and almost within the next day I was already feeling tired and couldn't pay attention in class because I was so fatigued. I called my doc and quit taking it within a day or so, so I also never got to the point of experiencing any long term effects, negative or positive.

I also think tolerance can play a factor because Seroquel was my first AP, so between then and now to my third, my body had surely built up a tolerance. So if Seroquel had been my third AP, then it may not have hit me so hard and fast.

 

[G_Chem]

Maximum buprenorphine effect has been said to plateau at ~60mg oxycodone regarding equianalgesic effect. I found that analgesia may be at ~60mg oxy but some other factors/effects make it even more strong comparatively when I tried to cone off. For me, effect of reductions became more linear, with steep curve, somewhere between 2 and 3mg. I will give you my subjective "table of effects":

6mg Bup (sl) = 100% effect ~ 100mg oxycodone
4mg Bup (sl) = 90% effect ~ 90mg oxycodone
3mg Bup (sl) = 80% effect ~ 80mg oxycodone
2mg Bup (sl) = 70% effect ~ 70mg oxycodone
1mg Bup (sl) = 40% effect ~ 40mg oxycodone
0,5mg Bup (sl) = 20% effect ~ 20mg oxycodone

Hope it helps. Off I go to bed. Have a great day!

My experience mirrors this pretty much identically. Everything about that little list is on point.

-GC

 

[Jabberwocky]

My experience mirrors this pretty much identically. Everything about that little list is on point.

-GC

Burenorphine is very strong. I think that everybody knows that by now. It is not a "wonder drug", but a legal opioid that has lower "strength to enjoy ratio" and is long lasting. Although some people would disagree and would say that it is their favourite opioid, that is the minority confirming the overall rule. Once a person gets bellow certain point (dose) it is the matter of personal preference which long acting or slow release opioid you are quitting. It is just that buprenorphine is legal and touted like a "certified tapering opioid". It is not intrinsic to buprenorphine, that was made by deciding/writing a law. I must say that I would rather be in a position to have to stop 100mg oxycodone and not 4mg buprenorphine. At the same time I realise that many people end up on buprenorphine cause they couldn't stop some other opioid and buprenorphine is legally available (cheap, allowed, touted by doctors).

There are several advantages for bupe. Like the fact that people addicted to opioids have no chance to OD from it. The other being that after certain point it stops exerting any further reinforcing (positive) effect. So people with established tolerance know that they will not get anything from redosing so it allows for reduction of compulsive activity. But it is not a "cure" , it is a drug. It is a potent opioid... up to a point. Everybody that is starting or stopping buprenorphine should know that and I hope that those facts are now common knowledge among opioid users...

 

[Opi_Kid_Rock]

I propose that this thread be kept in the archives for its usefulness.