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⫸STICKY⫷ The Delphic Oracle- Know Thyself: P&S Social Ampitheatre of Doom

I still don't get it. I PMed ageingpartyfiend haven't heard back.

So Catholics try to make you feel guilty?

I thought people confess basically anything and then continue on with their extremely illegal activities?
Look up "Catholic Guilt". Basically due to the teachings, we all have original sin which is rooted in the story of Adam and Eve. Adam was the first man and sinned (along with Eve), losing his holiness and that was inherited by humankind. Original Sin. Our sin stands before us due to the corruption of humankind's holiness. And Catholics are raised - in the churches, schools and some families if they are pious - to be guilty about basically everything. A good friend of mine told me how she would literally make things up in Confession as a kid even if she didn't have anything to say because Preachy Preach wanted to hear how much of a sinner you've been. It has an effect on people that follows them for their whole life, a guilt complex because everything can become a source of guilt. Doing a confession, confessing to your sin(s) - which is a sacred sacrament - will lead to Preach advising you to do some praying and to say a load of Hail Marys and Our Fathers and he will "absolve" you of the sin. But it affects lapse Catholics too, due to how it is drummed into people raised Catholic from such an early age - everything is a sin and every must be confessed if one is to actually follow the church which hardly anyone does now, at least where I am from (people are "culturally Catholic" or "culturally Protestant" for example). It would take me two lifetimes to confess my sins and there is no point. I wasn't christianed anyway.

It isn't a get out of jail free card but when it comes to confession, basically the priest is your line to the lord and if you confess and follow some performative tasks he has set, you can be absolved and you have to promise to not be naughty again. But it works differently in different places depending on how strict/powerful the church might be. For example, you can't have a priest at your funeral if you died when committing a crime or if you have sinned and not had it absolved before death (of course this might not always be known). People who know that they are dying and who are pious or re-discover their faith due to fearing death might spend a lot of time confessing, trying to repent, find redemption, seeking absolution and so on. Maybe even performing acts of penance to repent if they are able (i.e. physically able). Acts of penance are designed to absolve one of a sin. People will clutch on to their copy of the Catechism and read it intensely, constantly praying before passing onto face Saint Peter who judge them and either let them into the pearly gates, send them to Purgatory to do some time or they will go straight to hell for having been un-repented sinners. Also there are different kinds of sins: "Mortal Sins" (like murder I suppose) would or should lead to eternal damnation and it would take A LOT of work to be absolved of that sin, but I'm sure the church can help you find a way, especially if you are rich. There is a joke about former Prime Minister of the UK Tony Blair comverting to Catholicism due to the guilt he felt after the Iraq War and other crimes (people can't become prime ministers in the UK if they are Catholic/possibly just non-Anglican in general although I'm not fully sure on the latter. Deffo true RE the first though).

I don't think that it I've explained it well but the main take away is this: Catholic Guilt is something drummed into people from a very, very young age. Catholicism works on guilt. It has been a good racket in the past hence the wealth of the church because some rich people could go and give preach a hefty donation and get a good word in with Saint Peter, back before Enlightenment obviously but also after, even to this day I imagine and certainly in some parts of the world where the church still has a hold, such as Latin American countries. And poorer people might give everything they have, even up to recent times. They might have a sick child and might give all of their savings to Preach who will pray for them and all that but if it doesn't work, it was god's plan and as we all know, "he works in mysterious ways!".

But yes, Catholic Guilt is like a heavy guilt complex instilled in people from as soon as they start learning scripture and this complex - which I would say works on the guilt inherent in human beings anyway, psychologically, neurologically, whatever - follows them for their whole life, making almost every act questionable in their mind and making them feeling guilty. Another lady friend was talking about it and saying that even sitting on the toilet, trying to take a shit the "right way" can be a source of guilt.

Also you are assuming that people who commit heinous crimes actually give a shit and that they would even bother confessing. Don't forget that some people are sociopaths and barely feel guilt. They don't give a fuck about repenting or having their sins absolved, although they might still have the old guilt complex manifest in other ways.

There are good examples of Catholic guilt in media and film: The Departed (one of the best films ever) and the great TV shows The Sopranos and also Boardwalk Empire. The latter has a whole plotline dedicated to Catholic Guilt as the wife of the protagonist tries to conduct acts of penance to make up for her own complicity in his sin. Meanwhile, the protagonist, despite not being a "believer", still suffers through Catholic guilt in his own right. Catholic Guilt runs through The Sopranos also, being a major part of Carmella's attempts at dealing with her husband's line of work and her own complicity, due to her own guilt. Even some of the mobsters show that they have this guilt complex. These are good portrayals of how it manifests although it is a shame to see women taking the burden. The Departed is a sausage fest though so maybe give that a watch to see the masculine version.
 
Funny, I went to this church where they play drums and shit, the guy talking was casually talking about rape and murder then switched to something serious very quickly. I had to hold back from laughing just because it was pretty clear to me he was trying to bait people into guilt
Yeah that's more like how the church do it. They work on you from the moment you can start to understand/learn/read/write/speak and so on.
 
So Catholics try to make you feel guilty
I ve noticed that generally speaking, Catholicism in Northern Europe, especially Ireland , used to be more somber and obsessed by sex, especially up until the 70´s. Add to this sexually frustrated nuns terrorizing pupils, bigot parents, many old school priests convinced that the best way to save the souls of their parishioners was to scare the shit out of them and there you go. My family was Catholic because it was the thing to do in Italy at the time but they were not that practising, I called BS after my confirmation and I went back when I was 26, for philosophical and theological reasons and also because I was in the UK and fuck the Orange Men. Almost all my friends are atheist but the more fervorous one either went to Catholic schools or have super bigot parents, so I get where he is coming from
 
Jesus. I never knew most all of that.

Sounds like Catholicism guilt can really be instilled. And also now I know why there are priesthood jokes. Sounds like Catholicism can be easily exploited.

Re: The Prime Minister - if he couldn't justify the war, why would he do it? What would be his confession, someone forced him to make a decision?

Either way, I'm trying to put myself in their shoes right now. How would I feel if that were happening to me. I am unsure. But I know I very much dislike when people try to make me feel a certain way.

When I was younger it was like, "no reason to be mad", "you should really see your grandmother she wants to see you", things like that. And I very much disliked it. It made me angry. I had this guilt I believe where I could see what they meant.

As I got older I'm like damn I can't believe they convinced me to go on a 2 hour car ride every month so we can all sit on a couch and watch my dad and his parents catch up and then they'll ask how school is going and I'll say "good".
 
Yeah that's more like how the church do it. They work on you from the moment you can start to understand/learn/read/write/speak and so on.

Everyone who walked by after the service looked uncomfortable, some heads sulking.

I told my SO I'm like that was crazy did you not feel how hard he was trying to make us feel guilty? She was like I never thought of it like that.

Psht I'm so aware of that shit. Such a shitty thing to try and manipulate people's feelings like that.
 
@Madness it has been a racket for at least 1000 years. Visit the Vatican and you'll get a glimpse of how wealthy the church is. It is astonishing. And then look at the majority of Catholics around the world and how they are piss poor.

Tony Blair's confession might be: "forgive me father for I have sinned. I have played a leading role in one of modern history's greatest miscarriages of justice. One of history's greatest crimes, leading to much suffering and many deaths...". Fuck knows.

From what you've said, you would probably become "lapse" very early on in life which is common, especially in recent decades and especially with kids growing up in this world which doesn't really square with the teachings. But the reason it is hard to put yourself in those shoes is because you didn't experience the intensity of those teachings.

But you're probably a rebel, like I am. I could never be told what to do,

Here's a little story about how I knew from a young age that the church was jibbing us. There was a church over the road from the estate I lived on (like our version of "the projects" if you're from the US). They had a day for kids and our parents sent us all because they wanted a day off from us - we were little terrors.

Anyway they had activities planned and the objective was to find the "God Sword". Fucking yes! A sword would do me nicely. Anyway, we did all the tasks, like some kind of easter egg hunt of bullshit, can't really remember what they had us do but at the end, we finally find the "sword". Have you guessed it? It was not the "God Sword" but "God's Word"! Clever eh?

Needless to say, we all walked back over the road pissed off and I never trusted the church again. That said, lots of people of different religions/denominations have helped me throughout my life and I have nothing against religious people if they are good people. I do however have a problem with any institution that lies to me, manipulates me, undermines me, tries to bullshit me and so on.

"God's Word". Motherfuckers. We were there for an actual sword - 7, 8, 9, 10 year old dumb kids. I don't think they got a single recruit. Not from my little crew of rapscallions anyway.
 
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If only I had this famous Catholic Guilt......In my teens I thought I was the shittiest human being on earth (not for religious but for socio-economical reasons) then from 19 on I changed my mind, anarco inividualism , I m better than the majority of humans that are nothing but sheeps, yadda yadda yadda..... Catholicism gave me a more realistic account of humanity in general and of myself in particular, taught me to accept my flaws and the flaws of the others but also that I can and should be better. I ve totally lots of work to do but the hardest part is to not only try to change, but at least feel guilty for stuff that was and still is part of my life (i.e. drugs).
 
George Carlin had a great joke, something like: "I was a Catholic, until I reached the Age of Reason... around the age of 12.". Very clever with the double meaning.

@skipjames If it has made you a better person then good for you, God bless (not saying that sarcastically). That's what I was saying, in some of my most difficult moments, the only people who were there to help me were religious people and they didn't expect me to become religious (most anyway), they were just doing what they saw as duty and were also mostly just good people, on the surface anyway. There was one closet homosexual who made a serious point of introducing me to his wife but he was cool too, he wanted the best for people and I truly believe it.

I take people as they come, as individuals. Institutions however are much more responsible for the horrors of the world.

Does anyone else find it quite amusing that a thread set up to ask a former porn actress and sex worker any questions has turned into a theological, political and perhaps even philosophical discussion?

@SoCalShordie I apologise for my role in this. What do you make of all this? You were raised Catholic, is it a buncha bullshit or what?
 
@Madness it has been a racket for at least 1000 years. Visit the Vatican and you'll get a glimpse of how wealthy the church is. It is astonishing. And then look at the majority of Catholics around the world and how they are piss poor
Yo, we created stuff like Hospitals, Orphanages, Universities, we have given to the world beautiful Churches, beautiful works of art, Catholic missionaries were and are helping people in Africa here in South America and whatever....of course there are the Judas within the Church, as within human institution, I m 41 and I have made my fair share of BS Imagine a 2000 years old institution with a complex story,but no other institution-state- empire-whatever has contributed so much to the history of humanity
 
any questions has turned into a theological, political and perhaps even philosophical discussion?
@SoCalShordie , apologies for hijacking the thread (even if sex is a political, philosophical and theological topic) but as we are at it...have u ever offered your services to a Catholic priest- bishop etc? In Italy they are more into male escorts ,the former Abbot of Montecassino, RIP, spent the money of the faithfuls in compulsive shopping, crack cocaine and male sex workers....
 
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Also @Madness I meant to answer about former PM Tony Blair entering that war. A whole conspiracy was contrived to "justify" that war. You remember it, with Colon Powell (not a typo) telling everybody that Saddam Hussein had WMDs. Britain played a role in that too, saying that they had "intelligence" suggesting that this was true. This gave the pretext for the invasion. But you asked if Blair might've been "forced" into the decision to join in the invasion. It isn't that simple but he was complicit in the lies, the conspiracy and he was following US imperialism's ambitions, which the British ruling class profited highly from themselves via the oil, military contracts and all the usual spoils of imperialist wars. Look at Iraq now - a completely failed state. So Blair might've been morally against it personally but as a politician and a political leader, he was at the very least manipulated into it. Everyone knew it was wrong. Tony Blair himself was likely blackmailed throughout his career and this is how some people get to the top: they do the bidding of crooks because those crooks have a dossier that they can wave in their face any time they step out of line. Tony Blair is believed by some to be "Charles Lynton" (his middle names) who was fined by Bow Magistrates Court for "cottaging" (getting it on with men in public). Another example of a prime minister believed to have been blackmailed was Edward Heath - a pedophile - who took Britain into what became the European Union, even though the majority of both political parties in parliament were against it. People believed that he was blackmailed into doing so.

Also look up David Kelly, weapons expert in Britain who held numerous international roles. He ended up dead after calling out the bullshit premise of the war because Saddam didn't have WMDs as we all now know. He spoke out against this and died mysteriously, shortly after. Make of that what you will. (wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly_(weapons_expert - doubt it will talk about the fact that he was murdered but I believe that there have been inquiries into his death at least.)

It gets uglier: more Iraqis died as a result of economic sanctions in the ten or so years they were imposed after the Gulf War than they did under Saddam's brutal regime as a whole. in other words, western sanctions killed more Iraqis in approx 10 years than Saddam did during decades of he and his clique's murderous, dictatorial rule. Saddam was a crook and a gangster for sure but no match for the gangsters in Washington, Westminster (in London) and elsewhere in the west.

Tony Blair did convert to Catholicism after stepping down as PM, just in time for the financial crisis (remember that shit? I came of age when that happened). It was my mother who first joked that he probably did it to confess and find absolution. Was that his motivation? Why else? As I said, you can't be a PM if you're a Catholic and so maybe he always wanted to be both PM and a Catholic but he had to get the first ambition out of the way first. When you think about it though, I always wonder how these scumbags can sleep at night - maybe this helped that piece of shit sleep.

My joke about Tony Blair is that his hair seemed to suddenly turn grey like Leland Palmer's in Twin Peaks when it is revealed that he is evil. He even looks like a demon. Dunno if you saw George Dubya's recent gaffe: something like: "...Russia's illegal invasion of Iraq...". He then corrected himself but he knew, they all did, and in the UK most people didn't buy it for a second. Was Tony Blair blackmailed into it? Highly possible to some degree. Did he feel guilty? Maybe so, and joining the Catholic Church could be an indication of that but now that I think further, it could have been a performative action to make the history books write him as a flawed but decent politician who tried to find redemption. I find that idea disgusting but you know how these historians like to rehabilitate certain scumbags of history, like racist genocider Winston Churchill for example.

EDIT: was skim-reading David Kelly's (weapons expert) wikipedia page and saw this: 'As far as it is known, Kelly walked a mile (1.6 km) from his house to Harrowdown Hill. It appears he ingested up to 29 tablets of co-proxamol, an analgesic drug; he also cut his left wrist with a pruning knife he had owned since his youth, severing his ulnar artery.[3][134][135] Forensic analysis established that neither the knife nor the blister packs showed Kelly's fingerprints on their surfaces.[136][137]'. Emphasis mine of course.
 
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@SoCalShordie moderates this forum she could spank all of you
I'd rather spank @SoCalShordie and eat her ass. How much would that cost me?

@skipjames That made me laugh about priests in Italy not being much into women. I have heard of escorts talking about clientele from the clergy though - surely some Catholic priests are straight/into adult women?

Also agree on making a thread about this stuff but dunno what it would be called. I thought you were gonna make one about Marxism but I might set that up.
 
Also @Madness I meant to answer about former PM Tony Blair entering that war. A whole conspiracy was contrived to "justify" that war. You remember it, with Colon Powell (not a typo) telling everybody that Saddam Hussein had WMDs. Britain played a role in that too, saying that they had "intelligence" suggesting that this was true. This gave the pretext for the invasion. But you asked if Blair might've been "forced" into the decision to join in the invasion. It isn't that simple but he was complicit in the lies, the conspiracy and he was following US imperialism's ambitions, which the British ruling class profited highly from themselves via the oil, military contracts and all the usual spoils of imperialist wars. Look at Iraq now - a completely failed state. So Blair might've been morally against it personally but as a politician and a political leader, he was at the very least manipulated into it. Everyone knew it was wrong. Tony Blair himself was likely blackmailed throughout his career and this is how some people get to the top: they do the bidding of crooks because those crooks have a dossier that they can wave in their face any time they step out of line. Tony Blair is believed by some to be "Charles Lynton" (his middle names) who was fined by Bow Magistrates Court for "cottaging" (getting it on with men in public). Another example of a prime minister believed to have been blackmailed was Edward Heath - a pedophile - who took Britain into what became the European Union, even though the majority of both political parties in parliament were against it. People believed that he was blackmailed into doing so.

Also look up David Kelly, weapons expert in Britain who held numerous international roles. He ended up dead after calling out the bullshit premise of the war because Saddam didn't have WMDs as we all now know. He spoke out against this and died mysteriously, shortly after. Make of that what you will. (wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly_(weapons_expert - doubt it will talk about the fact that he was murdered but I believe that there have been inquiries into his death at least.)

It gets uglier: more Iraqis died as a result of economic sanctions in the ten or so years they were imposed after the Gulf War than they did under Saddam's brutal regime as a whole. in other words, western sanctions killed more Iraqis in approx 10 years than Saddam did during decades of he and his clique's murderous, dictatorial rule. Saddam was a crook and a gangster for sure but no match for the gangsters in Washington, Westminster (in London) and elsewhere in the west.

Tony Blair did convert to Catholicism after stepping down as PM, just in time for the financial crisis (remember that shit? I came of age when that happened). It was my mother who first joked that he probably did it to confess and find absolution. Was that his motivation? Why else? As I said, you can't be a PM if you're a Catholic and so maybe he always wanted to be both PM and a Catholic but he had to get the first ambition out of the way first. When you think about it though, I always wonder how these scumbags can sleep at night - maybe this helped that piece of shit sleep.

My joke about Tony Blair is that his hair seemed to suddenly turn grey like Leland Palmer's in Twin Peaks when it is revealed that he is evil. He even looks like a demon. Dunno if you saw George Dubya's recent gaffe: something like: "...Russia's illegal invasion of Iraq...". He then corrected himself but he knew, they all did, and in the UK most people didn't buy it for a second. Was Tony Blair blackmailed into it? Highly possible to some degree. Did he feel guilty? Maybe so, and joining the Catholic Church could be an indication of that but now that I think further, it could have been a performative action to make the history books write him as a flawed but decent politician who tried to find redemption. I find that idea disgusting but you know how these historians like to rehabilitate certain scumbags of history, like racist genocider Winston Churchill for example.

How come most humans both respect but also resent power positions?
 
How come most humans both respect but also resent power positions?
For me it depends on the position. I am a Marxist remember. 'The Prince' by Machiavelli will offer different answers, as will Thomas Hobbes' The Leviathan. Lots of other reasonings.

My respect for a person in a position of power would be based on their relationship to the class struggle and vice versa when regarding the enemies of the proletariat, who I resent completely (the only bourgeois leaders I've ever really "liked" were JFK and his brother Bobby but that's just a weird historical fascination for me, based largely on looking at the conspiracies. Also Clement Attlee (founded the NHS in the UK), Jeremy Corbyn (democratic socialist), Tony Benn (same as prior) and probably some others if I spent time thinking about it, mostly socialists elected to bourgeois parliaments and even some communists I'm sure).
 
I'd rather spank @SoCalShordie and eat her ass. How much would that cost me?
Oi commie, manners, she s not in the profession anymore ! You really need more Jesus and less historical materialism!
surely some Catholic priests are straight/into adult women?
Look, the ones who are into women generally sooner or later leave the "job", which is the decent thing to do.At least they re not so much into kids which is more an Irish thing, but there s a sort of velvet mafia of hay priests blackmailing each others etc.
 
Oi commie, manners, she s not in the profession anymore ! You really need more Jesus and less historical materialism!

Look, the ones who are into women generally sooner or later leave the "job", which is the decent thing to do.At least they re not so much into kids which is more an Irish thing, but there s a sort of velvet mafia of hay priests blackmailing each others etc.
I meant no disrespect to her of course, but if the price is right y'know? But I always thought Jesus was cool and many say that he would have been a commie or a socialist at least given what he actually preached. Jesus is a homie.

And yes, it has of course been a problem in the church. Same as in the USA and around the world generally. But as we've discussed, it happens in all denominations, religions and many secular institutions as well. Never heard "velvet mafia" before. Heard "Catholic Mafia" in Scotland who have always had a kind of horse-trade with the Protestants. BTW you mentioned the Orange Order - most ordinary people in Scotland cannot stand those dinosaurs and in the occupied six counties of the North of Ireland (6 out of the 9 counties of Ulster), they are practically a hate group. Same in Scotland but they are (hopefully) dying out. They still like to march past Catholic schools singing their bigoted songs though and its even worse in Ulster due to the conflict there, The Troubles.

In Scotland this sectarianism is called "Scotland's Shame". In Ireland it has been used as a way to divide the population (divide and rule, which the Brits are masters at). Ulster was colonised and they used lowland Scots from the southwest of Scotland to work in the plantations, pretty much as serfs, but instilled a superiority complex within them which aided the colonisation, creating said superiority as well as hatred.
 
How come most humans both respect but also resent power positions?
I don t respect power positions, some say that power corrupts but I think that corrupted people are more attracted to power.

@pharaoh you know when I first moved to the UK I thought " finally a country with a political system I can respect!" Then Brexit showed me how wrong I was....your country has given me a lot but hey, Guy Fawkes is being avenged ....
 
They still like to march past Catholic schools singing their bigoted songs though and its even worse in Ulster due to the conflict there, The Troubles.
Yep,,I ve seen one of their shows, one more reason to go back to Catholicism. Anyway, I m kinda high and despite your marxism I think you are cool hence I feel the need to confess my dirtiest secret : I like The Sash! 😭😭😭😭😭😭
 
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