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Discussion Should Harm Reduction supplies be funded by tax dollars?

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Mr. Krinkle said:
savages

like the people that hit the radiologist in the head with a bottle in Portland
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Arrest them. Pure and simple.

I don't know what you think being a 'far leftist' entails, but it certainly ISN'T advocating for a society where everyone just does whatever the fuck they want with no consequences. That's more correctly known as anarchism.

I'm the first person to say that anyone who commits an actual crime such as assault, theft, whatever to feed their habit should do jail time. What SHOULDN'T be a criminal offense in my book is merely doing the drugs themselves.
 
Mr. Krinkle said:
it's my money - i earned it
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I bloody hate that attitude. 'Not a single penny of my hard-earned cash should go towards people I consider undeserving.'
That's not how taxes work. You pay into a common pot from which anyone can take at need. As a German I'm very happy for a large amount of my taxes going to fund various health services I hope to any potential deity that's listening I'll never, ever need to make use of myself.
 
Mr. Krinkle said:
Ok...

So let's get back to the meth pipes... You give those out, in hopes that they smoke the meth instead of shooting it up with the free needles and syringes that are also given out to the same ppl... Is that right?
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Nope. I'd give pipes to the smokers and injection equipment to those who inject.

Like I said before, short of indefinite incarceration (and often not even then as prisons are rife with drugs) you're not gonna get someone who isn't ready to stop to just STOP. Our aim is to keep those people as healthy as possible while they're using, while continually pushing them towards help to quit.

None of the measures like needle exchanges or safe sites 'enable' drug use. That's literally my pet hate counter-argument. Someone hell-bent on doing drugs will enable THEMSELVES just fucking fine in my very personal experience. Not having clean supplies never stopped me. I'd just use whatever I could get instead. And the only reason I myself and tons of others like me are still alive today is because of the exact same provisions you seem to think is wrong for taxpayer money to fund.
 
TheUltimateFixx said:
I bloody hate that attitude. 'Not a single penny of my hard-earned cash should go towards people I consider undeserving.'
That's not how taxes work. You pay into a common pot from which anyone can take at need. As a German I'm very happy for a large amount of my taxes going to fund various health services I hope to any potential deity that's listening I'll never, ever need to make use of myself.
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Right - so you're in Germany - so i can't really speak about what's going on over there, because i don't see it

but you're telling me that you know what's going on over here? in Seattle, Portland, NYC.....these are the places that i can tell you about, and they are an absolute mess compared to what they were 15 years ago - it is that much of a difference now

you have no idea
 
listen and hear me out

the harm reduction that you're talking about it - might be working somewhat wherever you are, but im telling you right now, it is absolutley not working here


here you go....read that and then try to tell me how it's working:

www.seattletimes.com

Now can we act? WA’s overdose deaths are fastest rising in the nation

Washington state now leads the nation in how fast our drug crisis is accelerating, new federal health data shows. This ought to spark urgency, but will it?
www.seattletimes.com www.seattletimes.com
 
nypost.com

Washingtonians fed up as ODs claim over 2,750 lives in soft-on-drugs state

Lawless Washington is poised to have the most overdose deaths in the nation— and progressives who were once against punishing drug users are finally fed up and changing their tune, according to a n…
nypost.com nypost.com


that's another interesting read for ya ^


However, the tide seems to have turned as fed-up Seattle residents say they would now support arresting people who openly use drugs in public, according to the Seattle Times.

Of the 500 Seattle residents who were polled by Suffolk University, nearly 60% said they support arrests for drug possession and drug use.

“This is completely in line with what I’ve been hearing from my constituents ever since I got into office,” said Seattle council member Sara Nelson. She added parents and business owners are constantly voicing their concerns about the rampant drug use throughout the city.


see that 60% there? count me as one of them - that's how fucked up it is here
 
so far i have a guy from Germany and a guy from Finland, telling me how it is....


the other guy's keeping it a secret and he doesn't have much to say anymore

i wonder why
 
Mr. Krinkle said:
Right - so you're in Germany - so i can't really speak about what's going on over there, because i don't see it
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Nope, haven't lived there for the majority of my adult life. I still pay taxes to my home country because I decided to keep my original citizenship. I'm UK based these days.
Mr. Krinkle said:
but you're telling me that you know what's going on over here? in Seattle, Portland, NYC.....these are the places that i can tell you about, and they are an absolute mess compared to what they were 15 years ago - it is that much of a difference now

you have no idea
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I'm not telling you I know the specifics of what's going on over there. I AM saying I've been confronted with similar situations as I saw in the clips you posted, both in my personal life and in my current capacity as a helper. The US isn't the only place where you find squalor like that, although I dare say your country is pushing the limit in the so-called 'civilised' world.

... But, to be perfectly frank and graphic, an average day for me awhile back commenced with me waking up on a piss-stained old mattress, having to step over variously intoxicated and often mindlessly hostile strangers on the way out, keeping my scant belongings on me in a rucksack at all times because I knew they'd be gone as soon as I turned my back otherwise.
Downstairs (one floor below my 'room' where I shared said filthy mattress with two others) had the corners piled in literal shit because anyone who wandered in from the streets just used it as a fucking toilet. Everything stank and there was no privacy. I was subjected to attempts at physical and sexual assault as a matter of regularity. Some people were dropping of overdoses and nobody gave a shit. I spent an entire day with a corpse because there was an argument about how, when and where to best get it out of the building without the cops getting involved. ... But sure I have NO IDEA.
 
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ok, I read the articles.
They are not coherently implying, even indirectly, that policies should be tougher. Lots of calls for services other than what cops offer.
Another article claims apparently that ODs have been rising since softer policies were formed.
It might be, but looking at all the other data about prohibition, free drug policy and available services to addicts, and listening to people who study these things professionally, it still seems to be better when drugs are decriminalized or legalized, from almost any perspective. I have hard time believing Seattle would be such outlier to other world. I doubt more loose policies are to blame.
Also I wonder if addicts just go where the policies are most loose. Coherent decriminalization/legalization all over the world would solve this.
 
Over here in Finland it is often said that legalization could not work here.
No one over here ever offers any convincing reasoning.
Stuff like "we are too irresponsible drug users", completely missing the point that legalization would be best solution for that.
 
Pissed_and_messed said:
Also I wonder if addicts just go where the policies are most loose. Coherent decriminalization/legalization all over the world would solve this.
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ABSOLUTELY. Read up on the Platzspitz / Letten situation in Switzerland. It was the original 'needle park' and the state of the place was beyond belief.

The area attracted addicts from all over the place because it was known to be an open drug market where you could get anything you wanted and the local police had basically given up.

Meanwhile the liberal marijuana policy in the Netherlands has been dialled back NOT because there was an uptick in problem users as predicted (there wasn't), but because too many 'drug tourists' from neighbouring countries started flocking in and they wanted to discourage those.

In my opinion legalization, or more accurately re-legalization is the only way to go, but if we're gonna do that it has to be done unilaterally. Otherwise you create 'drug hotspots' that nobody wants. I mean imagine I can't drink beer legally in my country but I can do so free of prosecution in this other country next door ; what's gonna happen.
 
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valitettavasti, KYLLÄ
ok, there are huge plus sides to it, but our policies are dragging bad. Even medical mari is next to impossible get.
 
Pissed_and_messed said:
valitettavasti, KYLLÄ
ok, there are huge plus sides to it, but our policies are dragging bad. Even medical mari is next to impossible get.
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Olet edelleen monessa asiassa edellakavija muulle Euroopalle.

PS Isani tyoskenteli nuorema kuparikaivoksella Suomessa.



PSPS apologies for any mistakes. I'm sure I made plenty xd
 
TheUltimateFixx said:
Nope, haven't lived there for the majority of my adult life. I still pay taxes to my home country because I decided to keep my original citizenship. I'm UK based these days.

I'm not telling you I know the specifics of what's going on over there. I AM saying I've been confronted with similar situations as I saw in the clips you posted, both in my personal life and in my current capacity as a helper. The US isn't the only place where you find squalor like that, although I dare say your country is pushing the limit in the so-called 'civilised' world.

... But, to be perfectly frank and graphic, an average day for me awhile back commenced with me waking up on a piss-stained old mattress, having to step over variously intoxicated and often mindlessly hostile strangers on the way out, keeping my scant belongings on me in a rucksack at all times because I knew they'd be gone as soon as I turned my back otherwise.
Downstairs (one floor below my 'room' where I shared said filthy mattress with two others) had the corners piled in literal shit because anyone who wandered in from the streets just used it as a fucking toilet. Everything stank and there was no privacy. I was subjected to attempts at physical and sexual assault as a matter of regularity. Some people were dropping of overdoses and nobody gave a shit. I spent an entire day with a corpse because there was an argument about how, when and where to best get it out of the building without the cops getting involved. ... But sure I have NO IDEA.
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Yea great... You know what it's like to be a junkie... Too bad thats not what I was talking about or referring to
 
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Mr. Krinkle said:
Yea great... You know what it's like to be a junkie... Too bad thats not what I was talking about or referring to
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You're still throwing names around but not actually responding.

From all I could tell you seemed to be saying I had 'no idea' of truly degenerate living situations or the associated criminality. I got the impression you were telling me I had no right to comment because you assumed the stuff you showcased would be automatically outside of my scope.
 
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