US: Thank or educate your rep. for Colombian drug war vote

[JTMarlin]

(Not directed at anyone in particular) People have to die. There are more people on earth now than ever, therefore, more people have to die. That's how it is. What are we going to do when there are 15 billion people and 8 billion are Chinese or Indian in poverty? Either we let a billion die now or 10 billion suffer a lot more in a century. I'm sorry for those who are dying, but that's just how it is. All people are created equal, that doesn't mean they're equal socially, economically, and medically. Not only do we spend billions per year on globalization and foreign aid, people in the USA and other developed countries also donate out of their own personal finances to help those in need (ala: "Feed the Children," etc...) I'm not being cruel, I'm just being realistic. Anyone sitting here on Blue Light with enough time to talk about drugs (a completely unessential, WANT in life) has no room to talk. Why do you have a computer if you could have saved 50 children with it? Why not live a life of god, wandering the earth in search of meaning and give up all your material possessions if you're so intent on helping those in true need? Until I see someone working in Ethiopia as a missionary or volunteer doctor for NO PAY WHATSOEVER, then nobody has room to talk and say I'm selfish and inhumane. Some people are lucky, some aren't. Some are rich, some are poor. Some are white, some are black. Some live in a house, some in a tent in the desert. Everyone is different. I'm fortunate enough to go out and spend money on food I want, not that I need. Others aren't, and that's how it is. I'm sorry, but nobody can change that. Like the saying goes "The sweet is never as sweet without the sour." We even take people in our country out of work to give people in foreign countries jobs in order to gain more profit/help their economy, but what about the people who just got laid off and basically told to fuck off because their plant got closed and sent to mexico so the workers making cars can be paid $10 a day instead of $25 an hour with benefits and a union (not much for unions myself, but still). We give up so much in order to help others, sacrificing ourselves, yet people still bitch and start wars over us either helping too much, "bullying", being too rich and flaunting it, or not helping enough. Either get off your ass and be completely selfless or stop whining while you do exactly as those you whine about. Saying someone in a third world country can live on xx cents per day is irrelevant, because you are relating an amount of money there to the value of it here. The richest person in Ethiopia is worth, say $10,000, whereas here the wealthiest individual is worth $30 BILLION. 30 pounds ($45) would, in return, be equal to about $30,000 a year, the same amount it costs in the US to live on a basic lifestyle (if not less or more, also depends on where you live). Gosh, I'm 17 and realize these things. Give everyone on the earth medical assistance and that just means everyone has shitty medical assistance and doctors, no different than half getting great help and half none. Everyone can't go to Harvard and everyone cant have a house, it's all a matter of numbers, let alone resources. Besides, what will be next, trying to send every kid on earth to Harvard? Things are only great when a small percentage of people have those things, give everyone the same and that just creates chaos. Look at the USSR as a prime example, communism doesn't work in one country and wont work on the world. As was said earlier, some things JUST ARE, we can't question the semantics of everything. Us humans have became so bored we try to make everything perfect and down to brass tacks. It can't be like that...

 

[surrealthoughts]

im no communist either, i believe in individual and economic freedom and if america chooses to do fuck all with its wealth then thats their decision but i think its fucked.

no one saying give all your money to causes outside your country. Sure fix the problems in your own country, but a few fucking dollars wouldnt go astray to fixing an enormous array of problems that exist beyonds the boundries of your own self centred fucking world.

as one poster stated above if 10% of the worlds popn own 90% of the worlds wealth there has to be some sort of manipulation going on which isn't right.

if as you some of you americans say this is just how the buck landed (ie in americas hands) then two huge planes flying into your twin towers of economic might is also how the buck landed, and that particular problem seems like its only going to get worse.

if the comments here are representative of the american public than im quite fucking disappointed and saddened.

 

[JTMarlin]

Oh, trust me, I agree with you on that also. I read it when you posted you're not a communist and I believe you. We're taking this whole "Terror" shit out of hand. I mean, every day on the news is talking about how new terrorist attacks are suspected, well guess what, September 11 2001 was TWO DAMN YEARS AGO. We need to chill in this country, and get both domestic and foreign policy straigtened out. I just think this whole worlds fucked up nowdays, and the whole labelling of everything doesn't help. Let me ask again, what about England? Huh? They seem like a fine and dandy country, why doesn't anyone pressure them about being wealthy and whatnot? I'd gladly live there instead of the US. Or Australia? They have so much land and resources, but no everyone acts like the US is so rich and has it all gravy. There's more than one wealthy country in this world. $75 million isn't the point, it's $75 million MORE than xx billion that we already give. What about the national "debt" we have? Why don't we tell other countries we'll let them clear the money they owe us if they help themselves?

 

[mashmetaller]

Ok with this post I bow out of this discussion as people obviously think a lot of differnt things to me, and are not going to be convinced.


1) I don't believe in god, AT ALL, so that flaws that arguement for me personaly.

2)

The conditions that create poverty are many. While globalization, colonization and industrialization are responsible for some of the poverty in the world, I think the lion's share comes from geography and overpopulation. If you live in a desert you should expect water and food to be scarce. If you live on top of a mountain, perhaps the land will not be quite as arable. If you live in a country that of 1 billion people it is going to be overcrowded.

THIS IS MY MAIN POINT. No one gets chosed to be born into a poverty stricken country, so they should not be forced to suffer because of it. I honestly think that you must be autistic if you don't feel sory for the people living in the third would and want to help them.

Someone raised the point of the price of drugs. Let me tell you that the ammount of money I have donated to the homeless in England/the poor in the third world FAR exceeds the ammount of money that I have spent on drugs in my lifetime. Sure I have spent needless money on luxuries like drugs/music/socialising, but Im not perfect. I don't calim to be. I just wish that everyone would donate a small amount of money to worthwile causes. It would make A HUGE differnce to a lot of people's lives. £10 a month to you is nothing, whereas to some people this extra money could really change their lives.

I urge anyone who thinks differently to spend a few days in one of the worlds poorest countries, meeting the people, not just the satistics. If you can do this and still claim that the people don't matter and deserve to die, just because they were born into a poor county, your arguement would have more weight.

 

[surrealthoughts]

(Not directed at anyone in particular) People have to die. There are more people on earth now than ever, therefore, more people have to die. That's how it is. What are we going to do when there are 15 billion people and 8 billion are Chinese or Indian in poverty? Either we let a billion die now or 10 billion suffer a lot more in a century. I'm sorry for those who are dying, but that's just how it is.

if this is your argument then i think its essentially flawed.
if the worlds richest countries weren't such resource hogs then there would definetely be enough resources to go around.

but thats not necessary, as i said before just a little compassion would go along way.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

after doing some research it seems many other countries could contribute alot to people in need.

i hope that the americans here aren't representative of the human race, which sadly i think they are...

hopefully one day we can get past looking out only for ourselves.

 

[Si Dread]

Why should we spend money on either "epidemic," both drug or AIDS? The money should be focused on those suffering in the US, considering it's the US's funds, and then worry about the "globe." Why don't the other "world powers" give money, we're not the social workers' agency for the world...

The US undermines ecological treaties, it invades countries against the UN security council mandate and it refuses to endorse the international court on human rights.

Now it'speople want to leave those suffering and dieing from AIDs to their own devices....! What a bunch of selfish, ignorant tossers. I regret the pity felt on Sept 11th, and wonder if the US deserves further reminders of it's untenable position in the global community.

America, global peacekeeper, or rapist of the earth...?

 

[Si Dread]

Not everyone can't live a life that's American's are accustomed to. First, there's not enough resources. Second, us being one country and living how we do will soon catch up with us.

How many millionaires does America have?

We're not suggesting you all have to give up your wealth so the third world can all have big cars and bigger shopping bills. We just think that, if it cost us all a few dollars, or a few hundred dollars a year to ensure that children get clean water and simple, cheap medicines ( for stuff like diahorea, do you know how many hundreds of thousands of children die every year from a simple easilly cured problem like diahorea) that would be a very fair deal.

Surely you must realise, the longer the US is percieved to be selfish and mega-rich, the more people there will be willing to die to even things out a little.

No-ones expecting to cure all the ills of the world, but you don't just consign people to their deaths in order to preserve your priveleged lifestyle unless your prepared to face their wrath.

 

[ceryc]

Now it'speople want to leave those suffering and dieing from AIDs to their own devices....! What a bunch of selfish, ignorant tossers. I regret the pity felt on Sept 11th, and wonder if the US deserves further reminders of it's untenable position in the global community.

America, global peacekeeper, or rapist of the earth...?

once again, the us is spending something like 15 billion dollars for world aids funding. they chose not to spend and addtional 75 million they had earmarked for other things.

look, this entire issue is set up to be a political sound bite. "Evil US gov spends money on drug war vice AIDS funding" is just an attempt to piss off the liberally minded (of whom i am defenatly one). i was pissed when i first read this, then i looked deeper, and saw that they had already planned to spend, what, 200 times that amount anyway.

 

[JTMarlin]

it invades countries against the UN security council mandate

No, the mandate said we were supposed to do what we did, take power from a dictator who abuses his people/power. The other "big 2" countries didn't vote so we weren't supposed to, but Germany and Russia's votes don't count considering we found weapons they were selling to the Iraqis under the table.

 

[Si Dread]

Semantics, the fact is members of the UN security council wouldn't sign the second resolution because of US lies about the first one. The only reason America got a unanimous UN vote on resolution 1441 was because the US brow beat many countries and convinced others that there was absolutely no mandate for war in 1441. Then as soon as the resolution was passed America began gearing up for war, flying in the face of it's previous assertions that 1441 could not be used as a pretext for war on Iraq. Those countries, including as you correctly pointed out, France and Russia, who felt they had been lied to and misled by the Washington administration regarding 1441 refused to back any further resolutions on Iraq, understandably IMO.

As far as the Aids issue is concerned. The US suspended payments to some sort of UN group to which it had pledged 30 billion. How you expect me to praise it's offer of 15 billion, only 5 of which is "new" money, under those circumstances I do not know.....?

I have had this discussion with other Americans on other internet discussion boards so I'm not surprised by the unilateral position taken by many Americans. I am however surprised when I find apparently intelligent people who seem to have utterly no idea how privelged they are and look down on the suffering peoples of the world. Global stability is GOOD for America, progress for thirld world states is GOOD for America. Countries full of angry, hungry, disenfranchised people are ripe fruit for terrorists to pick and line up for suicide missions. Happy, successful people who aren't starving or dieing don't take time out to attack other countries. A peaceful world is a good place for America. A world full of cultural and economic disparaty is not good for anyone.

 

[ceryc]

um, even if the us was offering only 1 billion dollars of new money, that would still be 925 million dollars over what is being argued about now. don't praise it if you don't want to, but do recongnise the fact that it is being given, and by choice.

i'm not even a bloody american, and still i can see this. the world is filled with poor, oppressed people who need help. that does not mean that the us is required to help them if they don't want. we tell the united states not to push their morality on us, why don't we stop trying to push what we think back. it does no good no matter who is trying to take the superior hand at moral politics.

 

[Si Dread]

Of course I accept that anything is better then nothing. But I'm dubious as to the real intentions of the administration, remember this is a "pledge", and we are talking about a lieing bunch of secretive, greedy, power hungry types. The more I hear about how Bush got in and what he's been doing since, the more worried and suspicious I get...

 

[ceryc]

^^^
now mistrusting bush to do what he says, i feel the same way. if he doesn't come through on that, then it will be time to attack.

 

[little_vandal]

Or Australia? They have so much land and resources, but no everyone acts like the US is so rich and has it all gravy.

just to put in my two cents... yeah we aussies have some land mass..... but seriously, it's mostly arid and a lot of it is just plain desert. there are reasons why we haven't populated a lot of it apart from the fact we dont have the populations of other countries. Our resources aren't NEARLY up there with the U.S's but we still follow them around like a little puppy dog with whatever they decide to do anyway.

we followed america in everything that has happened in the world of late... afganistan, iraq, whatever. we have a whole lot of our own peace-keeping missions in our area of the world that always get backlash in one way or another no matter how good out intentions are.... so america, please remember you're not the only ones that are exercising some moral obligation to other parts of the world.

it's great that there is donations the U.S are giving to foreign aid, nobody is denying that, just people get a little upset when we all know someone could give more than they are (something that would not make major changes in day to day living of americans), and that would be enough to make the world a better place for millions of people.

i dont claim to know a whole lot about this situation, but thats the just the feel i got about it.

 

[Mursa]

No, the mandate said we were supposed to do what we did, take power from a dictator who abuses his people/power. The other "big 2" countries didn't vote so we weren't supposed to, but Germany and Russia's votes don't count considering we found weapons they were selling to the Iraqis under the table.

.........you forgot that the US sold Iraq weapons aswell . :D

 

[BA]

I like how people:

Don't want the U.S to act like the global enforcer.
Don't want the U.S to act like a global bully.
Don't want the U.S to interfere in damn near every country's drug wars and laws.
Don't want the U.S to act as global peacekeeper and bust into smaller countries when shit goes down.


But...

They DO want the U.S to act like the world-wide Salvation Army and chip in just because "they can".

8)

 

[surrealthoughts]

I like how people:

Don't want the U.S to act like the global enforcer.
Don't want the U.S to act like a global bully.
Don't want the U.S to interfere in damn near every country's drug wars and laws.
Don't want the U.S to act as global peacekeeper and bust into smaller countries when shit goes down.


But...

They DO want the U.S to act like the world-wide Salvation Army and chip in just because "they can".

8)

i don't see a problem with people wanting the US to be more generous and not be a fuckwit.

why does the US get the right to be a bully if it donates money to foreign aid?

 

[JTMarlin]

Why does "Foreign Aid" have to be money is what I'm asking? Getting rid of a Dictator is Aid, and Iraq's a foreign country. Germany wasn't that big and in a terrible economic condition, look at what Germany did. Imagine if we stopped Hitler in 1935, I'm sure people would have been pissed then too, but hey most agree it would have worked out for the better on the most part (minus the major economic up turn brought by war).

 

[gun toting hip gansta]

Why should we spend money on either "epidemic," both drug or AIDS? The money should be focused on those suffering in the US, considering it's the US's funds, and then worry about the "globe." Why don't the other "world powers" give money, we're not the social workers' agency for the world...

Typical fucking American attitude.

<edit to reword abit nicer>

 

[Pharcyde]

I sometimes wonder if the shit we drop on their cocoa leaves affects the people in any way physically...

I believe it does. It causes chemical burns when it comes in contact with skin. I read an article in High Times about it, it had a picture of a farmer in a hospital half covered in bandages and you could see the burns.